House Calls Podcast

How Music Heals Us (Part 1)

With guest Yo-Yo Ma,

Cellist & Humanitarian 

Hello and welcome to House Calls. I’m Vivek Murthy and I have the honor of serving as U.S. Surgeon General. Today, we'll be talking about the healing power of music. This is Part One of a two-part conversation.

We're rolling. House Calls Episode 35, with guest cellist Yo-Yo Ma. Let’s sync sound.

Ouch.

I always have that instinct too. Really?

When it’s “ooh.”

Like I was like I got pinched.

Yo-Yo, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining House Calls.

That's great. Thank you so much for making that house call. And I have so many problems that I wanted to talk to you about. Well, we can talk about all of that because we're here in person, which I love doing these recordings in person.

It's great.

But before we start…

Sure.

We have something very important we have to do. I learned that recently you celebrated a birthday.

Yes.

So…

Uh-oh.

I have a little treat here.

Oh my goodness.

With a candle on it.

Oh, that's so adorable.

And I'm gonna subject you to my rendition of Happy Birthday.

Okay.

♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ ♪ Happy birthday dear Yo-Yo ♪ ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

This is the sweetest…

Thank you so much.

Sweetest birthday song greeting I think I have ever had. That's beautiful.

Oh, well…

Want a bite?

Hope you enjoy it.

It's vegan.

We will share it together.

Go ahead.

You first. It's your birthday. Your birthday.

No, you go. You go. All right, I'll take… Okay, great.

Beautiful.

I feel like we're at chef's table.

Ah, this is great. We are literally breaking bread together.

Mm-hm. Nice.

Well, food certainly is a comfort and does cut down on loneliness.

It can definitely bring people together. And in fact, I was thinking, the very first time you and I met was around food.

We were at a dinner together. And, you know, one of the things that I remember from that dinner is, I remember your laugh. 'Cause you have such a wonderful laugh. It is like full throated. It's full hearted. And it just resonates around the room. And whenever you laugh, I can't help but feel better. And that's just one of my memories of you is your laugh, Yo-Yo.

It's funny because my memory of you was your kindness. It's funny because my memory of you was your kindness. I just thought, this guy is really thoughtful, and this is in Washington, DC where people are very, you know, focused and you were so unusually thoughtful and kind. And it makes total sense that you're now talking about loneliness.

Hmm.

Because I think the two was, you know, the twin poles of what you're trying to focus on are deeper issues that can plague all of us.

Hmm.

And, so that was wonderful. And then of course, each meeting that we've had, you were always concerned about trying to do something, both in your position, but also as a human being, to address a social issue in a way that can be broad but personal.

Hmm. Well, thank you. What a kind thing to say, Yo-Yo. Thank you.

That's what I remember. See, food makes me remember things. (both laughing)

Oh, you're very funny, you know, it's funny, the time that we met after that was also around food. And I remember when we were ordering food at this restaurant. I think I ordered something that was like, I don't know, an egg white omelet with vegetables. And when it came your turn, you looked at me, you gave me this mischievous look, and you looked at the waitress and you said, "Can I get some bacon? Is that okay? Even though it's not super healthy?" And I said, of course. Go ahead. Please get whatever you want. But…

That's funny.

Yeah, it was really quite funny. But… I love that.

We'll put a partition. (both laughing)

Oh, my wife loves bacon. So I actually make bacon for my wife, like on her birthday. It's one of my things. I go to the store, I…

Wait. And you're not tempted?

No, actually, you know, I haven't eaten meat for a very long time and I love the smell of bacon. I think it smells great. And I remember it tasted great too.

Right.

You know, when I used to eat it. But yeah, for some reason now I don't feel that.

That's great. That's great.

You know what temps me, Yo-Yo, is sweets. That's my problem. I have like, you know, many, many sweet teeth. And so if I'm around, so I try to stay away from desserts, like cakes and all that stuff because, you know, that's where my temptation can come in.

So, good for you. Well, you look healthy, which is great. Which is more than I can say for myself. But then I'm so much older than you are. So it's like, you know, that's…

Well, you look great, actually. And, you know, speaking of looks, you know, one of the things that I find myself thinking about it, I was thinking about it before we were chatting, was this question of how we look to the outside world. Like what the world thinks your identity is. I know that for you, Yo-Yo, you said so much deep thinking about identity, you know, like, and what struck me is that in some of the conversations that you've had with others is that your leading identity isn't as a musician. Right? Which I think is how the world looks at you as this virtuoso cellist and extraordinarily gifted musician. But it was striking to me that you put human first as your identity and then musician second, and then cellist third. But I'd love to maybe start there and talk a bit about how you see your identity now and what you see your mission as a human.

Well, what time is it now? (both laughing) It's funny. Well, I see myself as an older person.

Hmm.

So I just turned 68. And what's interesting about being that age, I think there's several parts to my identity. 'Cause deep in my heart, I'm still a seven year old, you know, and deep in my heart, I'm somewhere along that, I'm still a teenager, subject to all the things that, you know, seven year olds and teenagers might be, but, you know, trapped in the body of a 68 year old.

Mm.

But I also have partly a developed 68 year old mind. And that I'm really relishing, because you see trouble coming at you from further away.

Yeah.

It's like the sweets, right? I'm not gonna go by that pastry shop because I know I'm gonna be tempted, right? And so in a sense, life experience does, is helpful.

Hmm.

And I've learned enough to try and, as bad as the news might be…

Hmm.

Or the news cycle, to actually deliberately try and spend a smaller proportion of time digesting news like bad news and spending the greater proportion of time trying to be around people who are trying to do constructive things. That actually evens out the mood swings. So I, yes, I can get depressed.

Hmm.

But I know that I have certain levers in terms of how I spend time that will affect how I feel. Right?

So that's really powerful. 'Cause I think what you're touching on, I think is something a lot of people are going through right now.

Right.

Which is this feeling that every time they turn on the news or pick up the paper that they're just barraged with negativity and with what's wrong with the world. There's very little of what's right about the world, or very little to feel hopeful about. And I was curious of what some of those levers are or places that you reach for when you're feeling either pessimistic or feeling like the negativity is building too much.

Well, you know, starting with food, (laughs) you open the fridge and say, I feel terrible. (both laughing) You know? And that works only up until the time that, you know, none of your clothes fit any more. And then you realize, no, that's not such a good option.

Yeah.

You know, I don't wanna buy new clothes, so you have to turn to something else. I mean, I'm sure many people say the same thing because family and friends matter.

Hmm.

If you have friends, what kind of friends do you have? Are there friends that, you know, you could talk about specific things. You know, you have niche friends, you know, oh, I talk about, you know, comic books with this person. Movies with another. Or you share, you know, your existential self…

Yeah.

With 'em, you know, what's life about, or about, you know, things that are way beyond our understanding. You open the papers or you read every day, there's so many new discoveries, so many people are trying so hard for years, decades of work to suddenly get to, you know, a way of, you know, the health sciences, the universe, James Webb Telescope. It's just like, it's new theories and you're just saying, wait a minute, these are people who are actually moving ahead in time long before their work is gonna directly affect us, but they're doing it. Right? They're like the people at the edge of knowledge or of experiment or of adventure or whatever. And they're taking risks. And so that's comforting because it's like the people who can see the cliff before you see it and say, wait a minute, stop. There's a cliff there. I think about 10 years ago I was working with a colleague and I was in a bad state.

Hmm.

And Brooke, she suggested, she said, you know, try gratitude.

Hmm.

Said, "Huh? What?" And, you know, sometimes it's an easy word, but it's actually, to make space for that, is incredible. And so, part of, during the pandemic, I went into the national parks and met with a lot of incredible people, scientists, park rangers, indigenous folk, native people. And what happens, you know, there started in Acadia National Park with the Wabanaki. And so big circle, it's you thank the creator, you know, for everything. Right? Everything around, and you're part of it. And you do this over and over and over again in different places. I was suddenly included in a group that I otherwise would not belong, but they played host to my being a guest. And so we activated some, you know, just thousands year old tribal ritual of guest and host. We practiced that all the time.

Yeah.

Right? But I was a guest in that circle.

Hmm.

And suddenly I could partake in their way of welcoming the sun every morning and of then talking and saying what's on their mind. Another one in Alaska recently, I was in a group of people and we each introduced ourselves and the way people introduce themselves, they say, I'm so-and-so is my full name. These are all my ethnicities, these are my grandparents and whatever. So it's like, you see the person in front of you, but that person is surrounded by sort of their relations and family and tribal units. And then we were asked to say, and who would you bring in this circle right now?

Huh.

So an additional person that you can say, okay, I want this person to, imagined, but, you know, who may not be with us any more or far away. They're then part of this. Changes the tone of conversation.

Absolutely.

You know, so I've lately experienced those types of interactions that make me realize that, you know, I live in a very, no matter how open I try to be, my world is still very siloed. And what you spoke about earlier, about each time that you did something a little risky. Right? You know, technology company, okay. To volunteer for this and to start some public service organization, it's a risk. It's a place that's not familiar and you're making an experiment, and is that gonna work?

Yeah.

And then I see that what you said, you never thought you'd work in government because it's too slow. You do a technology company which works at an incredibly, you know, fast rate. And now you put two knowledges in your head together and you can activate that.

Yeah.

So I think, so thinking and thinking about how different things fit together, pieces in order to gain a little bit more clarity, actually helps with your own, you know, mood.

Yeah.

Right? So it's like say, and there are moments, I don't know if you feel that way, but there are moments when suddenly something becomes clear and you've been wrestling with something, and then suddenly-

Yes.

There's a path forward. You don't know when or why exactly it happens, but they do happen. And if you put yourself in a position where there's more frequency of that happening, that's also an arc, a positive arc that you can hold onto during times of chaotic thinking.

Oh, yeah. That absolutely makes sense. And you speak to a kind of openness and a way of approaching life with openness so that you can take those tracks that are unplanned, but that present themselves periodically in life and create experiences that teach you and perhaps guide you in new directions. And I remember when I was reading a bit about your story, Yo-Yo, I love the story of how you, your parents gave you an instrument when you were two and a half years old, I believe it was.

Yeah.

Perhaps the violin. Yeah. And had you play around with it perhaps, and try to play, but then thought, oh, he doesn't seem to have an aptitude for music.

Yeah. That sounded so awful.

And said he's probably not gonna be a musician.

Right.

Obviously we know that things turned out quite differently.

from the series “Songs of Comfort” Prelude to Cello Suite No. 6 in D Major, J.S. Bach

But it kinda made me wonder, you know, thinking about like your own experience as a child, going from that to where you are now. I think that there are a lot of children who have dreams, dreams of what they wanna do, who they wanna be when they grow up. And then fears get in the way.

Right.

Other people's opinions get in the way and they start to doubt whether they can do it. There's this artist that my daughter really loves. Her name is Lily Meola, and she has a song called "Daydream". And there's a line in that song which says, "All these things we say we'll get to are shot down by the reasons not to." And that seems to play out all the time that we dream of these things, but then we figure come up with all these reasons why it could never happen. And we started doubting ourselves. For you, what gave you belief? What gave you faith? What helped you move forward with this extraordinary career that you've built in music? And did you have moments of doubt? Did you have moments where you thought, gosh, I'd love to do this, but I'm not really sure if I have what it takes?

Well, you might be surprised to hear that even though, or maybe because I started playing an instrument at a very early age, I never felt that I could or had to make a decision to be a professional musician. You know, I loved music, but any profession is the same because it involves people, with the jostling of, you know, of people. And it's the same in, I think, in every sector. So I didn't particularly want to be a professional musician. I had tiger parents who were like, you know, sort of saying, okay, you know, you're gonna do this. And I'm also an immigrant. And I have the immigrant energy of saying there's very little safety net, you know, you can't depend on… So, you know, I'm gonna take the weekend off, you know, I'm just gonna go to the country, you know, and…

Yeah.

There's not that.

Yeah.

And so there's the pressure to say, well, you better do something, right? You know, and you better do it well. So that was certainly in my background. I think… So I had parents that had high hopes and ideals for what I should be doing. And also probably parents that also lived through the child, you know, and which is slightly less healthy, I think, but very much understandable…

Yeah.

In an immigrant situation, because it's like, okay, well, you know, we did this and now, you better, you better. Right? And so I grew up, you know, and with the benefit of having gone to college, which opened me up to so many incredible friends, people who thought differently about things. And I was not a particularly good student. You know, I just relished being with a group of people sort of my own age or slightly older. But I was fascinated by what they were doing and what was around me. And it wasn't until after I graduated from college, I realized, it was wasted on me, you know, saying…

Why is that?

I'd walk by the library and say, you know, and see these dorms, it's, my goodness, they built all of this for us, you know, 17 to 21 years old, and what were we doing with all this? (laughs) It was a sad, revelatory moment. But what I decided to do is to say, well, you know, I can actually spend the rest of my life really learning, just explore. And, which I tried to do for many, many decades, always thinking, what might I have done if I was not doing music?

Hmm.

You know, so I'd have-

What's the answer to that? What do you think you may have done?

Well, I don't know, because it just depends on what… So what I realized at age 49 was that I knew what I loved. I loved anthropology, I loved archeology, I loved history, I loved sciences, I loved people.

Hmm.

That says I loved people. It said, okay, all right. So that's… And then I thought, you know, I could explore all of these subjects through the lens of music. And so that was when I decided, okay, it's okay to be a musician.

And this is actually one of the things that I think fascinates me about you as a musician, is that it's more than a job, it's more than a skill to you, but you describe it as a way to engage with people, to connect with people. And that comes across so beautifully and clearly, not just in the notes that you play, but in the projects that you built, whether it's a Silkroad project or, you know, other projects where you have, you've used music as a way to bring people together, to help us appreciate each other and our world more. You've used music as a source of healing. And I mean, I was curious sort of when you realized that music could be that kind of force, a force for connection and healing, and how did that come about that you had that insight?

Well, both early, during and late. I mean, I think very early on, so I must've been about four or five, you know. I realized that there were two connecting movements in a Bach Cello Suite, cello solo, that I loved connecting them, you know, that the end of one, and there's a silence between, you know, the end of something and the beginning of something. But that silence was like a pregnant pause. And there was something extraordinary about that. And I loved that thing, right? Because it was comforting. It was something that later on I could then describe that as getting to a state of mind. And that's where the comfort, healing part comes in. from the series “Songs of Comfort” J.S. Bach: Sarabande from Cello Suite No. 5 So fast forward maybe a couple decades, And we got more letters from people who were going through hard times… Whether they were about to go through an operation or, you know, lost a friend, or they were ill, or they were studying for, you know, exams and stuff. They turned to some of those Bach pieces. So I said, wait a minute, there's something, there's some power in this music that seems to, you know, take people to a place that they needed to be in, whether it's to concentrate or to relieve stress, or to deal with worries or whatever. But there's something in that. So that's what made me start thinking, you know, how do I get this out to more people? And, you know, so for about five years, I worked on six documentaries with pairing each of the six Suites with an artist of a different kind. You know, it was a filmmaker, dancer, garden designer, kabuki dancer and ice skaters, Torvill and Dean. And, you know, made those documentaries, you know, PBS, BBC, it was like, sort of did that, and to show, and I have no idea whether, it was an experiment. The experiment was that if another person in a different creative field lives with a piece of music for a year, you know, they have that in their psyche, their, you know, mental DNA. Right? Then how would that piece evolve in their art form?

Mm. Mh-hm.

It's kind of like a, you know, a biological experiment with a piece of music. And so we have six of those, you know, and this is, that was the result. It was not to prove anything else except to say, okay, we are gonna make that experiment. And so… So that was an early foray, then it was the Silkroad, which came from right after the Oslo Accord that was actually in Israel. And the next day went with a number of friends across the Allenby Bridge, first to Petra in Jordan, and then to Aqaba in Jordan. And then I was asked on the way back to stop by Amman and do a masterclass for some young Jordanian students.

Hmm.

And they, you know, they played, And they, you know, they played, I asked them what they were playing, why they were playing it, and their answers were so rich in poetry and philosophy. And that was one of the moments that I thought we should have like a Middle Eastern youth orchestra. Because, as you know, talent is everywhere. Right? Brains are everywhere. Intelligence is everywhere. It's not, you know, geographically limited. So it says, let's kind of, let's do this, let's try. And that grew into Silk Road Project, and, you know, so it's all separate events that made me think of things. I think that one event from an undergraduate class was an anthropology class where we were looking at films made by the Marshall family on the San people in Botswana and Namibia. And there was one film of a blind musician that was so, I was so mesmerized by the music, I thought, I wanna go there one day and find out about their music and their trance-dance practices. Which then by accident, I said this to a reporter, and I was approached by a filmmaker to say, will you go do a documentary, which I did in the '80s. And that foray into a place that was probably the furthest away from anything I'd experienced before… led me to understand that in their trance-dance practices, where, you know, the women are sitting in a circle and the men take a hallucinogenic drug, which is never abused, as opposed to alcohol. And there's talent involved in people who can go into trance, laying of hands… They open, freely people in other villages are welcome to join in order to be cured of what they feel they need to be cured of. So there's a generosity aspect to it. You know, there's a sort of, you join and interviewing two of the women the next day. I said, so why do you do this? Because, you know, to me, that ritual was essentially, turns into medicine, religion. You know? Art, culture, dance.

Yeah.

And she said, well, because it gives us meaning. So that experience has, I think, pretty much been the foundation of everything that I try to do. You know, you do stuff because it gives meaning.

Meaning. Yeah.

And who does it give meaning to? What is the meaning? You know? If music can take you to a particular state of mind, that's a kind of medicine. Right? If you can't-

Exactly. Yeah.

It's without drugs, it's energy. It moves air molecules. It somehow, we interpret that in a certain way, for your daughter, that, you know, it's something affects you and you are then feeling temporarily better.

And that's where I think you're spot on in underscoring the healing power of music is in part it's ability to frame shift our mind and our thinking and so quickly. You know, sometimes it will take us a while to kind of talk ourselves into a different mindset or way of thinking, but sometimes music can just immediately transport us to a different feeling. You know, what it reminds me of a little bit, Yo-Yo, is that we, for a long time, I don't think, you know, we appreciated how much physical activity shifts your mindset.

Right.

Right, but now we know that when you go outside and you run, or when you lift weights, that actually has a real measurable effect on your mood. And in some studies, you know, can have almost a similar effect to even medication. I think music also, in a very powerful way, can shift our mood. And I think at a time when so many people are struggling with their mental health, that a time where as a country, it feels like sometimes we have descended into more worry and anxiety and some pessimism about the future. I often wonder what could shift our way of thinking. And music feels like an incredibly powerful tool, which is why I love your approach to using music as a source of connection, a source of healing, and as you put it, a source of meaning that can speak to us in ways that sometimes words alone can't.

Well, I completely, I love your thinking on this and bringing that as a national subject for people to focus on. I would say that what makes for an equilibrated human being, you know, someone who has balance in their lives, you know, they feel like everything is functioning well. You have to join three parts of yourself, and one is metaphorically the brain. Right? You know, functioning brain, using it, and the heart, our ability, again, not the heart as an organ, but the heart, the metaphorical heart of feeling of empathy, of compassion, of just being in touch without feelings.

Yes.

And join the head and heart, and then to what you just then described, physical activity, hands, using your hands, using your body…

Hmm.

That actually, because our mind translates into the body. I know, for example, when I play cello, I think of each one of my fingers as little brains, because they feel things before I can actually, you know, analyze what's happening, right? So the connection between feeling, so people, artisanal people, who bake, you know, who make this table, or who can make this lamp, or who work with electronics, there's a satisfaction of feeling that is… We've separated it into white collar workers and blue collar workers. And that's a real artificial thing. That's an industrial kind of category.

Yeah.

Right? The white-collar worker supposedly is like, you know, you have a theory, you got it made, right? And I'm obviously exaggerating, but by joining those aspects of our ways of taking in information and using it to create a whole self, I think that's something that is worthwhile considering, especially when, and it goes beyond consumerism… You know, if you buy something, it's different than if you made it.

Yes.

Right? And it's not against, it's great that we can buy things, but it's great if we have the pride and the dignity of having made something.

And I think it means a lot, also something special to the person receiving it. Like, I think about the difference it makes when somebody buys you cookies from the grocery store.

Right.

Versus when they make the cookies for you at home. They may taste the same, but the meaning is profoundly different.

The intention's different.

Yeah. The intention really matters.

I made this for you.

For you, yes.

The fact that you made this, this morning.

I will not claim to have made this.

You didn't make this, but someone made it. (both laughing)

I should have, if I was a better person, I would've made it.

No no no no. You would've been the lesser person because you would've gotten less sleep and you've gotten mad at somebody for, you know- (both laughing)

You know, at this part, I just, I'm gonna remember what you said about music transporting us from our head into our heart and our body. Because it, you know, you and I are recording this conversation in Cambridge, on the campus that you and I both went to college on at Harvard. I'm literally about 150 feet from the dorm that I actually lived in-

Amazing.

When I was here. But I remember one of my things in college is I remember I was in my head all the time. I was always studying, I was always like trying to think about the future, plan this, plan that, whatever. And it was only when I actually went to residency training later that I actually, when I was working like 80 plus hours a week, you know, seeing life and death in front of me every day, dealing with critical decisions, seeing so much human suffering, that I actually turned to music and to dance. And I found that what was powerful, and it happened a bit by accident, but what was powerful is that I found that being in my body as I dance and having music to speak to my heart and allow me to, in a way almost like mobilize and reconnect with these emotions that I had, which I had walled off, that was incredibly therapeutic for me. And so it became part of my residency experience.

That's wonderful.

I learned to be, to salsa dance. I would listen, I would turn to music more often, but to me, it speaks to the healing power of music. And it's something I think we need so much in our country, certainly in here in the United States. And one of the reasons why I feel very committed to seeing how we can use music as a force for healing following, of course, in the beautiful example you've laid out. But I think that this is something that we need in the world. from the series “Songs of Comfort” Suite No. 1 for Cello, Sarabande, J.S. Bach The projects that you have built involve the world. Right? I think you're recognizing that, recognizes that we are all deeply connected as human beings, and we're all suffering in different ways, but music can be a way that we can understand each other. And if we do it right, my hope is that it can be a way of creating a culture around kindness and around compassion, around curiosity and exploration of each other. I think it's an extraordinarily powerful force.

Well, quick question, Well, quick question, when you did salsa dancing as a resident…

Yeah.

How did that, did that in any way change your approach to bedside manner?

That's a very interesting question. It actually did a little bit in the following way. I think it gave me a deeper well of energy, but also compassion. Because I was more in touch with my emotions, I found myself more able to be in touch with patients when they shared about their emotional journey, as opposed to getting tired or feeling like I was burning out. I was more able to stay present to appreciate those parts of their journey, and to ask more deeply about the emotional part of their journey. You know, often in medicine, because there's so much pressure to move quickly and to-

Absolutely.

And there's a lot going on, especially when you work in the hospital setting, which is what I was doing, sometimes you're just quickly like, tell me your symptoms, lemme figure a diagnosis, lemme get you some treatment, lemme move on. And sometimes it's all you have the time to do in an emergency. But I think it gave me more reserve and more motivation to inquire about the emotional dimensions of a patient's life, which it turns out was so vital to understanding what they're going through and to being a part of their healing.

That's really interesting because, so in a reverse way, a lot of people ask me, you know, should I go to conservatory? Or should I go to liberal arts college? And, you know, and these days some people say, well, liberal arts, you know, not so important, and let's go for specific professions. But I just wanna give you an anecdotal example of that for me, going to college was so valuable because the courses I took… You know, in Russian literature, in astronomy, you know, in anthropology… Everything that I've done since college, all the projects that you talk about refers back to something that I experienced there. So what I tell my young colleagues to say, you know, what should I do? I kind of say to them that what you do before you're 21, it's like you're actually investing in your emotional bank account from which you draw from the rest of your life. And that's what I feel at some level I've been doing. That something was, you know, collated or somehow put together in a way that there's some reference to an arc that I can follow and say, oh, now I can pick up on that thread or that, as opposed to say, what should I do now? You know, I don't know what to do. And that's one thing. And the other thing that your response about feeling connected to your patients, if there's time or having more reserve, In terms of the body, the skin is our largest organ. And during the pandemic, at first, there were these reports of, you know, patients who were really, you know, going to die. But nobody could visit them. And everybody was in hazmat suits because you didn't know what was going on. But they were able to have an iPad, and I could play music, which, as you know, if you hold something, there's a vibration.

Yeah.

And sound moves air molecules.

Hmm.

So it's the closest thing to being touched.

Oh, that's beautiful.

And so I thought, you know, I've led my life thinking, what's the purpose of music? You know? What's it for? Because for most people, it says, well, you know, it's dispensable. It doesn't do anything. It's not like we need firemen. You know, we need whatever. But for music… And I thought, at one point during the pandemic that actually there is a purpose because, you know, for people that, let's say, medicine can no longer do anything to help them. Right? They're in hospice care or whatever. And between that space and dying, they're fully human.

Yes.

And, you know, so there's a space where I think music can actually really do something helpful. In terms of comfort, in terms of, you know, that kind of loneliness that can either make or break your sense of self.

Yeah. That concludes Part One. Join me for Part Two on the next episode of House Calls with Dr. Vivek Murthy. Wishing you all health and happiness.