House Calls Podcast

Yes, Vulnerability is a Superpower (Even For Pop Stars)

With guest Eric Nam,

Singer & Entrepreneur 

Hello and welcome to House Calls. I'm Vivek Murthy and I have the honor of serving as U.S. Surgeon General. I'd like to introduce you to Eric Nam, a pop star and advocate for mental health. Today we'll be talking about his rise in the K-pop scene, how he balances his mental health with his career, and how his fans all over the world have embraced this. My guest today has become something he never thought he would: a pop star. For a Korean-American kid from Atlanta, this is a long way from his parents' expectations for a traditional career. Eric Nam's rise to stardom in the K-Pop world as a soulful, thoughtful voice, loved by the millions who called themselves members of Namnation seemed so smooth. But his path has been layered with challenges. As his star rose, he struggled. He experienced anxiety, depression, and feeling otherness and he's seen fellow stars succumb to mental health issues. But instead of hiding his difficulties, Eric has been vocal about them, bringing to the stage his vulnerabilities as a way to challenge traditional, perhaps rigid ideas about success and manhood. He's also created a platform for others to share their stories and foster a community. In our conversation, we discussed the healing impact of creating and sharing music, how cultural context and nuances shape how we think about being open. And we discovered how for us, being vulnerable also means being in constant conversation with your internal self. His fans and fellow artists have embraced this part of Eric Nam, and I'm excited to bring you a conversation that explores what it means to prioritize mental health and to be true to yourself when up against a world of high expectations. Also, stay tuned to hear Eric and me reveal our new boy band name. As always, we're happy to hear your thoughts at housecalls@hhs.gov Eric, welcome to House Calls.

Hi. How are you?

I'm doing great. How are you doing?

I am doing superb on this, what? I don't know what day it is, morning.

Well, I'm excited to speak with you. You know, it is Asian American and Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander Heritage Month and this is a big month for me and for you and so many of our brothers and sisters in the AAPI community. I'm also really excited that we're talking because I know how much you care about mental health and that's something that you and I both have a passion for. So, we have a lot to dig into. But before we do, I actually want to start with a quick mindset check as you do on your mental health platform. So what's one thing that you're grateful for right now?

One thing that I'm grateful for, the weather today looks really, really great. And as you may know, LA and California has had a lot of rain this year. So every sunny day feels like just a blessing. So I looked at it and I'm feeling grateful for that.

Oh, that is beautiful. I love it. I'll tell you, I am, what I'm grateful for today is my two little kids. I was on a trip yesterday and came back just before bedtime and they, as soon as the door opened, they heard me come in and they ran toward the door and gave me a big hug and they said, "Papa, you're home." And it was just, it lasted five seconds and they got distracted with something else, but it was like the best five seconds of my day and reminded me of what matters in the world. So that was wonderful.

How old are your kids, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, they're five and six. My son is six, his name is Teyjas, and my daughter Shanti is five.

Aw. They must be a handful but also adorable.

They are and they are thick as thieves, so they're each other's best friends and they hang out all the time. They want to do everything together but they also fight unpredictably and often. So, (laughs) we never know when it's going to go from laughs to cries, you know?

Yeah. That's amazing.

Do you have a sibling yourself?

I have two younger brothers, Eddie and Brian.

Oh.

Eddie's two years younger and then Brian is eight years younger. And then Eddie just had his first kid with his wife and so, like seven months old. So they're going through new parenthood as well, so. Yeah.

And how does it feel for you to be an uncle?

It's great. It takes the pressure off of me for having kids for at least a, (chuckles) hopefully at least like a few years. But no, he's adorable, really, really cute and life is a beautiful, amazing thing. And to see it continue in that way, I guess, through my brother and his wife and that's been really, really cool.

That is great. Well, I'm glad to hear it and congratulations to your brother.

Thank you.

I have a few things I want to start with. As you know, I'm a doctor, I have the privilege of serving as Surgeon General, but inside I'm actually really an artist. And when I was younger I actually wanted to be a musician and was excited about the idea of being in a boy band. So-

Did you now?

Yes, I have not told many people that.

Okay.

I realize I'm now saying this somewhat publicly, but you know, hey, that's life. That is what's real. So, I want to hear about your story though, 'cause I'm very particularly fascinated about it. Like how did you become the pop star that you are today and did you know from an early age that you wanted to be a musician?

You know, it's one of those things where you, when you're young and you're asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? It's oftentimes an astronaut, a firefighter, whatever. And for me it was always just, I want to be an artist, I want to be a singer. And I remember that it was obviously very much discouraged and I also didn't even know how to go about doing that because I feel like in order to dream those dreams, you have to be able to see yourself in that place, in that role. And born and raised in Atlanta, looking out at the media landscape or the types of content that I was consuming, like I didn't see an Asian or an Asian American singer anywhere. So it was always like, yeah, it's a dream, but I highly doubt it's ever possible. But I had always just sang or I had always sung music as a child and I started to upload covers onto YouTube when that became a thing because it felt like the one place where people who look like me were doing things that were creative and getting feedback and there was like this community building around it. So that was kind of like my one outlet I think for music or for singing particularly. And then I went to Boston College, studied international studies, political science. I ended up getting a job at Deloitte Consulting to be a strategy and operations business analyst. And when I got the full-time job offer I realized that I went through life as a young 21-year-old checking off every single piece of like the Asian American parent's perfect dream resume. Go to school, get the degree, get the job, do all the things. And I had this moment where I was like, this is great, but am I happy and am I going to be happy when I hit 30, 40, 50 just probably working a corporate nine to five type of job? And that really freaked me out. That really kind of shook me. And the one other passion that I had had outside of music was social work, service work growing up. So, every summer starting in high school, I would spend in a Latin American country doing some form of service. And into college we did a trip to Bolivia for microfinance. And I think sophomore year we did a three-week trip to Kenya. I studied abroad in Beijing for nine months. So it was kind of in my, I guess DNA to travel and to try to explore the world. And so I asked Deloitte, I said, "Hey, thank you so much for the job. Can I take a year off before I start?" And so. (Vivek chuckles) I don't know what boldness I had, what courage I had to do that, but they're like, yeah, just let us know what you're going to do and you could take a year. And so I actually deferred and I applied to some programs and I ended up in India doing a social enterprise fellowship for a few months until I got this email from a Korean TV show, very much like "American Idol" or "The Voice." And it was, it felt like one of those emails was like, oh, prince X, Y, Z in whatever made up country is going to give you $3 million. Send us your passport details. (Vivek chuckles) But I was still so excited about the potential of becoming a singer that I sent just enough information that they could send me a flight and if it was real, I was like, I'll go. So the flight came, end up in Korea, went through nine months of being on a competition reality show.

Wow.

Ended up in the top five, quit my job, signed a record deal, and put on music. And that is the long short answer in terms of how I got to where I am in music.

Wow. I mean there… First of all, what an extraordinary story and what I'm struck by is that there are a number of branch points in the story you just told where you could have chosen a very different path where you could have taken that question that you said surfaced in your mind of, is this going to make me happy? Is it really going to make me happy? And you could have just suppressed that. You could have just said, oh, I'm not going to ask that question, I'm not going to deal with that right now. What I'm curious about is what gave you the courage to engage with that question to sort of even wonder that maybe there was something outside the path that you had led to believe would lead you to success and that you might want to actually explore that or pursue it?

I think for me, I was always a hyper ambitious, but also like overly involved person. Even at school, I was in all the clubs and organizations, I was part of student government, had multiple jobs doing multiple things. I think it was like you were doing all the things that you are told you're supposed to do. You have done all the internships, you have the job, you have these points of leadership and whatever, but are you really happy and is this what life is? Just to continuously, constantly be chasing after things that you're supposed to check off a checklist. And I think that's what really freaked me out. I was like, I don't know if I'm really happy. Like I'm exhausted. And just because I have these things on a piece of paper or a resume, or a LinkedIn profile, it doesn't mean that I'm really fulfilled as a person. And I think when that kind of came to mind and I kept having this lingering sense of like, this can't be what life is about is when I was kind of starting to explore like, but what would make you really happy? Would music make you really happy? Would traveling the world and helping others make you really happy? Like, those were kind of the conversations that I had internally that led me to these different decision points.

I mean, that is so important I think for people to hear just that question you're asking, is this what's going to make me really happy? Is it going to bring me fulfillment? No, I'll cut again. So one of the things I'm really curious about is to even engage with these questions about what truly makes you happy and to confront the idea, hey, it may not be what you're doing right now, that requires courage and courage often is informed by whether there are people around you who might support you or not. And I want to ask about your parents, 'cause you know, as a fellow Asian American who has parents who came from abroad and settled here and had traditional ideas of what to do, I know that can be tough to navigate. So how did you have that conversation with your parents that you may not want to go work at Deloitte and maybe, and that you were going to go to Korea and spend nine months pursuing music there.

Yeah. I kind of think of it as like long-term negotiations with my parents. It was always like, look, I've done all of these things. I've gotten this degree with honors, I've gotten this job, I've done all these things, everything that you could have ever asked for. Maybe I'm not a doctor, maybe I'm not America's doctor, but… but I've done a form of everything that you really wanted. And so I think, I was like, I think I had this moment where I was like, I've done everything you've asked for. I've done everything that you want and you think is successful up until this point. Given that you trust that I'm not, I'm a logical, nice, good human being and I've rationally thought through all these decisions, and these things, like I would really like to do this. And I think I give my parents credit as well because that's still not like an easy thing to be like, sure, go ahead, quit your job, go move to Korea where we left and came to the States to give you a better life and everything. It's like you're going to literally go back completely opposite of what we did. But there was like, I think because I had worked really hard and they also saw that they respected those decisions, whenever those decisions came, it was this trust that was built in. It's like, I've never really caused problems. I've never really had a rebellious childhood. And so for me, when I feel a conviction of this is what I have to do or this is what I want to do, I think there was a trust that was already inlaid. Having said that, even when I moved to Korea, and even like years into my career, there were many, many moments where my mother particularly was like, "You should move back to the States and get a real job." And I was like, yeah, but my face is literally on that billboard and that bus driving by. She's like, yeah, but like, why do people like you? I was like, I don't know. This is. I don't know. Can’t we just like accept the fact that we're doing this and it's fine and like we'll make it work? But I think parents naturally are inclined to be concerned and be stressed and worry about their children no matter what in any situation, in any job situation, whatever it is. And what my parents have shown me is that like, as long as we are healthy, as long as we feel happy and fulfilled, like that's the best that they can do as parents and to provide that sort of situation and support that. So, it took a lot of persuasion at first but once we were in it they were always very supportive and I'm very grateful for that.

Well good for you for being honest with them and good for them for also accommodating, and understanding the path that you wanted to go down, even if it's taken a while. You know, I think in my own life, I remember my, a much smaller decision I made when I finished college was that I wanted to take a year off and I wanted to explore different things. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go into medicine, I wasn't sure if I wanted to pursue different path, but I wanted to take a year off and figure it out. And my parents were like, what is this year off thing? Like if you take a year off, you're never going to come back to school.

Yeah.

You know, who knows what's going to happen. And I still remember them like telling my relatives in India about this and the relatives are like, "Oh, they sacrificed all this stuff, left India, went to the United States, and now look what's happening to their child. He's one step away from unemployment."

Yeah.

And I was, it was a really striking moment that I look back on now because over the years they've like, they completely understand now. They're like, yeah, you want to do your own thing, you want to like explore, you need to think, you need to try different things and that ultimately lead you to what makes you happy. But that was not the mindset that they were brought up with. And so, they've also evolved, I think a lot of our immigrant parents evolved as we were evolving and their views shifted.

Yeah. No, I agree. I think it's been… I have a brother that's eight years younger and seeing and watching how my parents interact with him and his decisions, I was like, where were you when I was growing up, mom? Like, it's such a different experience.

Yeah.

But it's been really cool and interesting to see how their, I don't want to say beliefs or, just like what they think is the right way kind of change and shift over time, which has been really great to see.

You got to tell your brother he owes you for life, for paving the way.

Oh, I tell him every day. I remind him every single day, "You owe me." (Vivek laughs)

Well Eric, let's get into your music. You know, one of the things I love about your music, and there are many things I love about it, but you've talked about music as a way to heal and that resonates with me deeply 'cause I also believe that healing is more than about the medicines we prescribe and the procedures that we do. It's about something deeper, more artistic, more spiritual that can come out through different mediums, including through music. And I'm curious, like how does that belief in healing like show up in your music or in your songwriting process?

For me, I think the music writing process is very much therapeutic and cathartic. And it's healing in that sense because oftentimes I'm forced to sit in a room with strangers and talk about whatever it is that I may be going through emotionally, mentally, psychologically because that really affects everybody in that room for the entire day. We're stuck in a room together for six to eight hours. And so what I have found is the more honest and vulnerable I am in expressing and explaining what I'm going through, oftentimes the better the song. And there are days where I walk in, I'm like, I'm not feeling it today. Today I'm just going to be like, the superficial, let's just like, let's just write a hit guys, let's just write a big smash. And everybody's like, okay. Like we'll just write the most generic, superficial song ever. But then there are moments where I walk in and I'm like, I am just really so lonely right now, or I am going through like extreme stress and this is what happened and this is my… This is what happened, this is a person, this is this person, and we all got into this argument and like blah, blah, blah and we spiral. And it is through those conversations where we're sitting there and everybody's listening and there's, oh, actually I went through that as well. Or it's kind of, it becomes like a form of group therapy. And what I've found is once we hear those stories then we're able to put it into a piece of music that sometimes is painful or sometimes is uplifting, or sometimes just exactly what we would want to hear if we ever went through it again. And I think that's why every piece of song, every piece of music that I write, I have like a very distinct memory about that song. It's a piece of, it's a page out of my diary essentially. And so I think that's how it's become a very cathartic, therapeutic process for me in creating music.

That is beautiful. And it seems like a key part of your process is to be vulnerable, is to be honest about what you're going through. How did you learn how to be vulnerable? Was that something that was modeled for you when you were growing up? Like how did you find the courage to do that?

I still struggle with it. I still struggle with it. There are days where, again, where I don't want to share anything and I think that's valid and that's fine too. But you know, I think everybody has limits in terms of how much they're able to hold in and to suppress or to just contain. And there is also just when you contain and you hold onto these moments of stress or anxiety or whatever it is that you're going through, it's not good for your health, mental and physical, and I had to learn all that the hard way. And so, I think naturally as I was trying to cope with a lot of difficult situations that I had been going through throughout my career, I found that speaking with certain friends or trusted advisors or mentors was very, very helpful to me in all aspects of my life. And so, I think when I started to realize that just having like close guarded conversations with intimate friends like, then I was like, oh, this isn't a big deal to share that I'm going through a very hard time, that I feel like I'm at the brink of breaking and people are going to help me, and it's not going to be a point of judgment. And I think once you make that connection, everything kind of starts to flow a lot easier. I think the part that was kind of weird when it comes to songwriting is oftentimes you can be put into a songwriting room and you don't know anybody in that room. And it's in that moment where you're like, do I want to say these things or do I not? And that's oftentimes like a vibe thing. I kind of want, like, I don't trust these people or like, oh, something about these people seems really warm and accepting and like non-judgmental and even if… And then sometimes there's something beautiful in sharing something very deep and profound with people that you don't know at all because it's a completely objective perspective and you're also giving them a real honest, intimate glimpse into your life even though they don't know you and a lot of people I think appreciate that. They appreciate when you're vulnerable with them. And so I think throughout, I don't think it's a certain moment but it's just throughout my career and living life and seeing how people react when they hear real stories, I kind of naturally learned to kind of have that conversation.

Was it harder to find a way to be vulnerable as a guy?

I don't know if it was harder to find a way to be vulnerable as a guy necessarily. I think one thing that I think worked in my favor is I spent about 10 years in Korea. So I started my career in 2011 in Korea and I was there around through 2020, 2021. But I feel like in Korea, guys are naturally a lot more expressive with each other. People are very expressive in terms of, I really like, like Korean language I think is also very nuanced but can also be very direct in the way that many languages can be. Like they use terms of endearment that in English could be considered to be offensive, but it's not, in a cultural context it's just a very straightforward kind of thing. And so, there's interesting ways to play with language so it's very subtle and nuanced, but there's also a very directness and an openness between people that I think is really interesting. And so in Korea between like my guy friends, I think it was very easy actually to be very vulnerable. And then I think back to my university days with my guy friends where it is a little more, oh, like how do we have this conversation? This is kind of awkward kind of thing.

Yeah.

So I think maybe, perhaps for me living in Korea for 10 years, I'm only realizing this in this conversation right now. It's like maybe that was how I learned to be more open and vulnerable with my life. I don't know.

That's fascinating 'cause I think you're totally right that there's a cultural context to a lot of this that shapes how we think about being open. When you came back from Korea, did that openness and your ability to be vulnerable with guy friends, did that translate to your relationships here in the United States?

I think it's interesting because I would almost, these days, so I've been in and out of the States like working a lot more here for the past about two years now. At this point when I was like, oh, am I too open? Like, am I too honest? (chuckles) Where this is like a very recent conversation that I've been having with myself because I would still, I would catch myself saying things or thinking ways like, oh, that's like a very Korean way of thinking. That's a very Korean way of expressing something, which again, in Korean, it's not an offensive thing but if you directly translate it into English, it could be taken the wrong way. And so, I'm going through this retraining process of like, oh, right, don't say a certain phrase like this because it can be completely misconstrued even though in a different cultural context that's the only way to express it. And so, those are things that I'm learning right now, relearning and retraining myself to kind of figure out, because again, as, I don't know how you feel, but for myself as a young adult in his early 30s, I feel like making new friends is a very scary, daunting thing, and it's a very awkward thing. And I feel so lost sometimes trying to navigate social situations in the States. So I'm like figuring all that out again.

Man, Eric, I so resonate with that. I think you're spot on and I don't think you're the only one who feels that way, by the way. I think there are a lot of people in their 30s and 40s who are no longer in school who maybe, not necessarily close to the folks that they work with, but we're just in a different environment now, a phase of their life and it's hard to make friends, and that's what they're finding, and it's tough. I've experienced that myself too, for sure and it's not as easy. And sometimes I just think I just want to hang out with my old friends. That's really what I want but a lot of my old friends are not here. They're scattered around the country and my wife the other day was telling me, she was like, "You need to put more of an effort into making friends here in DC." And so, that's something I've been been thinking about more about how to do that. But it's not easy, it's definitely not easy. And part of the reason I think it's not easy if we don't talk about it very much either, you know? You look around and it seems like everyone's got their own friend circle and everyone's doing fine and they're all happy when you see their posts on social and stuff. But the reality is I think there are a lot of people who are finding it hard just like you're framing.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

You know, Eric, you've also talked about how the first five years of your career were pretty tough. I think the words you used to describe them were a constant struggle and a battle. And I mean, I can only imagine what it must have been like for you to build a career like that having been on a completely different track before. But can you talk a little bit about the impact that that struggle may have had on your mental health?

Yeah. Man. It was, you know. I'm trying to… I look back at moments in my life and I was like, oh, like you were really depressed. Like, I'm pretty sure you were, you had severe depression. There were points in my life where and I say that only because I don't think I really knew or understood how to express that or diagnose or get a diagnosis of any type, especially what, 10, 15 years ago. It was just the resources weren't there, you know? Smartphones were a new thing. It's really incredible how much progress we've made in a short amount of time but couple things that I realize about myself is my memory got really bad. There were moments in my life where I think because it was very difficult or perhaps traumatic for me, I don't remember a lot of it. And that's had, I think, this is just my personal theory, like a lasting impact on how I retain things. So part of it might be like, I meet a lot of people and just the, by the nature of my job of being on stage or meeting fans or meeting so many incredible people all the time, my brain can't actually process it. But the other thing is like I've, I will have times where I spend like six to 10 hours with a person. We'll go have dinner, we'll go watch a concert, we'll go get drinks after like. And I don't remember it at all. Like, people will be like, "Hey, remember when that time we went and like we did this and this." I was like, I have, I don't, I've never been to that concert. And they pull up a concert photo and was like, "This is you at this concert watching this. Like, we're all together." And I was like, I don't, that's like not in my brain.

Huh.

And I don't, (chuckles) I don't know what exactly it is but the best thing that I can think about is like, I had so many difficult moments in my career that were very, very difficult, traumatic, and tough that I think my brain just started to wipe things out or just not retain things just to like safeguard myself from any other potential of like lasting impact. And that doesn't really, it can't really discern between this is a positive memory and this is a bad memory. Like things are just gone. And that's something that I've never really spoken to anybody about, but it's something that I'm trying to come to terms with of like, I think this is like a real thing. Even when I was going through these difficult moments, I realized that I wanted to get help, speak to a therapist or psychologist or whatever. And in Korea, especially during that time, like mental health was not something that was discussed at all. So when I told my managers and my labels like, I really want to go see somebody. Like you cannot because if word gets out that you are going to see a doctor, you're going to be framed as a crazy person and your career's over.

Oh my gosh.

Which was kind of wild and I was like, oh, okay, well as like this up and coming musician that really wants to make it, I was like, okay. Again, I don't know anything about Korea, I could barely speak the language. And so, I'm just listening to what the label tells me. So I really was like, okay, I dropped it. I was like, no, but I think this is getting worse, like, I need to see somebody. And then they took me to the friend of somebody who works at the company, and then there's a trust issue of like, yeah, well, I don't want to tell you everything because everything and you're going to tell them.

Yeah.

And a lot of the issues that I'm having stems from the label.

Yeah.

And so, it was like this constant struggle of like I want help but I don't know how to get it. But there was, it was really tough and I think if there is a positive side going, not that I would ever want to go through that stuff, but having been through those experiences, I'm able to better verbalize and understand and recognize when I'm going through a hard time when some of my peers are going through a hard time, my friends, and then we can have a conversation or a dialogue about it. And it's not, it doesn't need to be taboo and it doesn't need to be hush hush. And I think so many people are starting to realize finally the value and the need to do that, which has been encouraging in the recent years.

Man, first that is just awful that you needed help and were told that you couldn't get it. I mean, what, I'm just imagining you being in another country, building all new career, like you said, not feeling comfortable in the language yet and dealing with all of that and being told that you can't get mental health care. I mean, that's, that's really rough. So, how did you manage during that time? Like what did you do to find relief or to deal with some of the stress and depression that you may have been going through?

I think I'm grateful there were a few people around me who were willing and able to just really hear me out and to kind of be there with me step by step throughout the process of getting through all these really difficult moments. And even though they couldn't really do anything to change what I was going through, at least I had somewhat of a support system so that I could kind of vent or they could listen, pretty much be informal therapists to me and be just friends. And I think that was the only way that I was able to really keep going and like keep my head up, and keep it together because I was still working as this is all going, going on. It's all, you still have to get up and do your job. And so-

Yeah.

I think that was like the biggest thing and there were also, I'm sure I probably… I don't know. I think I probably drank a lot, probably not the healthiest way to cope but when you are young in your early 20s and you don't know what's going on, it's like, you know? In Korea, drinking is such a common place thing, every single day kind of thing where I was never dependent or reliant on it but it was like the one form of having a conversation over beer or something was like the one thing that I think I had that I could control. So yeah, I don't know. Wouldn't encourage that but I would encourage the friends part, the friends and trusted individuals that if they're willing and able to help, to really ask for their help.

Well, friendships are so essential in their healing and I'm so glad you had people around you who could support you during that time. And I can imagine that dealing with fame as you've had to now for a number of years, that that makes it all the more important to have people that you can really trust and who know you. What has that experience of dealing with fame been like for you and how have you handled it?

Man. You know, there's definitely pros and cons to it. I think the one, the difficult part is that you can oftentimes live in fear or in under high levels of anxiety. Because I had been through a lot of situations where I would say something, again, Korean is not my, what I consider my first language. I would misspeak or I would do something that is culturally taboo or I would just have no idea. So then I'd be in trouble for something that I was like I have no idea what just happened but I'm, for some reason, in trouble. And it made me a very introverted person. So that's like the one other big shift is in college I was very extroverted. I get to Korea, immediately I've been introverted and anytime I do the Myers-Brigg test, I now turn up as introverted. And I can, I look at the questions like, oh, well, these set of questions are going to make anybody that has any level of fame or whatever, just at least in my perspective, immediately anxious. And so, I think that's like the one thing that I think has affected me when it comes to fame, just it's made me very introverted, it's made me very anxious just because you just never know when somebody's going to take a situation or a phrase or a sound clip and completely misconstrue it or make it something that it is not. And then there's like the common thing of just when I was in Korea just walking around or doing things like people are always recognizing you and people are always looking at you. And so, again, it's just anxiety of like, oh, I hope I don't do anything wrong or I hope I don't offend anybody or, you know? I think living with that type of mindset for years can have a certain effect on the way you live out your daily life. So, I think that was probably like the biggest thing.

I mean that's big and I imagine that it may have an impact on how you think about building new friendships to our earlier point.

Exactly.

Like has it been harder to build new friendships?

Yeah and I think that that's the unfortunate thing of just like when your mind and your brain it starts to think in that way, everybody that you meet, suddenly you unfortunately have to approach it with like a sense of skepticism or you're like, what did this person really want or like, would this person potentially ever get me in trouble even if it's not anything I did but just by affiliation? Just like, there's so many layers of thinking that I think I tend to go through. And then I'm like, you know what, I'm just like not going to go out. I'm just not going to meet people. I'm just going to sit at home and eat a bowl of cereal, and watch something on Netflix or something. And so, yeah, definitely it makes it more challenging and it is a process that I'm going through to deescalate those situations and that thinking in my head to say like, yeah, it's fine dude. Just go out and meet some people or like go with friends to meet people. And there are days when I'm like, yeah, sounds like a plan and I get there and I have like horrible anxiety and I don't know what to do with myself. And then there are days where it's great. So, I think it's just a constant conversation with my internal self, and that's kind of how I've learned to frame my life on a daily basis and just to be as in tune with how I'm feeling every day as possible.

Well, that is beautiful that you're approaching it in such a thoughtful way. And you know, I think you've recognized also that there are so many others out there who are having their own struggles with anxiety and with depression and with loneliness, and I really appreciate how you've made helping folks especially Gen Z with mental health challenges a priority. What's the approach that you're taking as you think about how to help other people with their mental health?

I think it's like two-pronged. First, it's me and my life and how I live it. I'm very, very fortunate to have people who listen to my music, who come to my concerts, who watch my podcasts or my YouTube shows. And it's incredibly, incredibly fulfilling when I have just random individuals just walk up, it's like, I love your podcast or I love what you're doing with the way you live your life. You're encouraging or inspiring, whatever. It makes what I do so worth it and I'm so grateful for that. So I think, again, being honest in these types of conversations and when I go to college campuses to speak, like being very vulnerable about like the things that I've been through. That's like the first prong. The second prong is, so my brothers and I, we have a startup, we have a mental wellness platform, it's called Mindset. And for us it was, we realized that through all the podcasts that we were doing, all the digital media we were creating, the content that always overindexed and that people were always most attracted to and wanted more of were conversations that were real, honest, and vulnerable. And these are conversations with other massive K-pop stars, people that are my friends. And they would rarely ever have these conversations on other platforms or with other people. But because I guess, I'm a friend, somehow, naturally these really deep conversations would come up. And we thought, how do we build something where artists feel very safe and comforted having these conversations more often? And that's how we created Mindset. And so we have artists, not only K-Pop but some of the biggest American R&B, rap, pop, hip hop, even actors from Summer Walker, Black, Amine, Paul Wesley from "The Vampire Diaries." And then you have our, all our incredible K-pop artists as well from set groups like Seventeen and (G)I-DLE and iKON to myself. And we're all on there sharing our life stories. We're sharing the great incredible successes and achievements that we've made with our fans, but also being honest about the parts that hurt, that are challenges that made us have anxiety or depression or whatever form of human experience that we all share together. And so, our goal there is to really normalize the conversations around mental health and to let people know that it's completely okay and normal to not be okay sometimes. So that's kind of been the second approach of building that platform, building a community around it, building a community of artists as well around it that are willing and able to be vulnerable. So, that's kind of how we've kind of manifested and built this thing out.

Well, that's extraordinary and I just love how you took a really difficult struggle in your life and you turned it into a path for helping other people, both through your music, through this platform, and just through conversations like this. So, I think you're setting a great example for folks out there. As we come to the close of our time together, Eric, I want to ask you some rapid fun questions.

Yeah.

So here we go. What do you love most about being Korean American?

Ooh. I love every side of myself of the Korean Americanness and I say that because I think when we were growing up, I don't know how you felt, but I always felt othered. I never felt like I ever fit in and I think that's the case for many children of immigrants or people of color. I was too, and it extends not only like growing up but like in the States too Asian, in Korea I'm so American. And so, I don't feel at home in any place. But what I'm realizing now is that that experience of feeling othered, of being third cultured, there are so many of us who feel that way and are connected in that way. And there is such a big community of people that feel that way, that I am not alone. We have other third culture people that we can rally around and encourage and to be inspired by, and that's been really cool. And also understanding that being third cultured is a superpower because we understand multiple cultures and maybe even multiple languages all at once. We can sit at the intersection of a incredibly globalized world and we are able to really pull people together to kind of pick and choose in terms of, I don't want to say opportunities, but like we can pick and choose in terms of how we want to engage with certain things that we really, really like. So what I used to be very, like, what I thought of as something that would held me back I think is now propelling me in terms of giving me momentum and opportunities, and like insights into ways to build things. And so that's been really, really cool. And also Korean food, music, skincare, TV, film, killing it. So. (Vivek laughs) Makes me very happy.

I love it.

Yeah.

I love it and I think, you know, I know and many others can relate to the feeling you're talking about of being an immigrant kid growing up and feeling like you don't quite fit in anywhere. You know, I used to feel that growing up in Miami. I used to feel that when we would go back to where my parents grew up in India and people would look at me as a foreigner there and sometimes as a foreigner here too, you know?

Yeah.

It was hard to fit in but finding other people who were in a similar boat and it turned out there were many of us, that helped a lot. And I love what you, the word you use, superpower 'cause I think it is, I think we have bridges to other cultures, languages, worlds, experiences that ultimately I think make us stronger and enable us to connect to more people. So, that's wonderful.

Absolutely.

I have a music-related question for you which is when you're feeling stressed or anxious, what are some of the songs that you go to? Not your own songs but perhaps songs from other artists?

Oh man. What are songs that I go to? I honestly. (chuckles)

Yeah.

I don't even know. What I do is I just turn on Spotify and I turn on like coffee house jazz.

Nice. (laughs)

Or sometimes I'll play like top country hits. At heart I'm an Atlanta-born and raised kid so like country music plays this weird comforting role in my sonic consumption. But yeah, I don't know. I have, again, I have a really bad memory. I'm trying to like look through my playlist, but you know?

It's all good. Hey, listen. Country music is incredibly soothing and healing and I can completely relate to the feeling. So having country music being a go-to. So, appreciate that.

So yeah. I mean I just play some playlists and it's either like late night jazz, coffee house jazz, or it's country when I really need to like chill out.

(laughs) I love it. Now most important question, if you and I started a boy band together, what would we call it?

You know what?

Yeah?

I was…

I'm really glad you asked this question because a pre-question to that is, who did you listen to growing up? And when you said you were like I want to be part of a boy band, like NSYNC or Backstreet Boys or is it 98 Degrees? Like what's going on? I need the DL on this.

Yeah, yeah. So here's who I liked, I've liked over the years. Big Backstreet Boys fan.

Yeah. Solid.

Big U2 fan.

Okay.

And this is not going to fit with the other two, but I really liked Def Leppard also back in the day. (both laughs) That doesn't quite fit but hey, people don't make sense, so.

That's totally fine. Okay, well like if okay, if you were to, what's your go-to karaoke song?

Oh. Go-to karaoke. Oh man. You know, I don't do karaoke 'cause I don't have a voice for karaoke and I don't want to like cause pain in other people's lives, but-

I don't believe you but go ahead.

(laughs) So I need to summon the courage to get over that. But if I did do karaoke it would probably be "Where the Streets Have No Name" by U2. or "Beautiful Day" by U2.

Got it. "Beautiful Day." Wow. Incredible song.

Yeah.

Now, sorry I've completely flipped this on you.

That's okay.

You said you imagined yourself being in a boy band. What role would you be playing, you know? And what are you wearing? I want to paint this picture. Is it like leather pants and like a V-neck vest that goes down to your belly button? Or is it like more buttoned up? Like what do we think?

Oh man, this is exciting. I haven't thought about these details but okay, here's what I think will work. I imagine, so in terms of what I'd be doing, I'd want to sing, right? And whether that was like I was lead singer or whether I was playing a guitar and singing like, either way but-

Yeah.

I'd want to sing, that'd have to be a big part of it.

Got it.

And in terms of what I'd be wearing, it would be loose. I'm not like a really tight clothes kind of guy. So it would be loose, it would be colorful. You see like my, in my day job, I have a uniform and it's the same uniform every day. But this would be like really colorful, I imagine like, yeah, I like blues, I like reds, I like oranges, I like greens. So I imagine it's something that's got a lot of that going on.

Okay.

And I'd want to wear, I'm not really a boots guy, so I'd want to wear something that was more, more kind of low top but comfortable 'cause I'm more of a function over fashion kind of guy. And you know, something I don't do in my civilian life but which I imagine doing on stage potentially is hats. I don't typically wear hats except when I'm in uniform I have a cover, which I have around here and I can show to you. But actually could I just get my cover on the show? So this is what I wear as a, when I'm-

Got it.

In my uniform and I'm outside. But I can imagine something, something else that I'd wear as a civilian. And can I just tell you one funny thing?

Please.

When my office was setting up a Twitter account way back in the day, they wanted to set up @surgeongeneral, but we had to settle for @surgeon_general because @surgeongeneral was actually a band as it turns out. Crazy.

Darn you.

But maybe there's a cosmic message there. Maybe it's driving me toward music in some ways.

Yeah, no, I think all points, all signs are pointing to music and I'm just, I have this image of you wearing more of like a cowboy hat as an homage to our appreciation for country music, baggy pants with low top sneakers, but they're like bejeweled just 'cause you would never do that. I don't think you'd do that in civilian life but just a little flash on the feet but the pants are baggy so they only show when you're moving, you know? It's like little sparkle.

Ooh, okay.

And god, okay. So now going to our name. We got to figure out this name. (both laughs) I'm really bad with names.

Should it be oriented around food?

It could. It could be about like Korean Indian Chinese fusion. So.

Yeah.

(muttering) Fusify, that's a horrible name. I'm sorry.

It's okay 'cause I will tell you speaking, I mean I like, you know what dosas are, the dosas in India?

I love dosas.

Oh, they're so good. I love dosas too and I actually like eating dosas with gochujang sauce, right, 'cause it's just, it's such a great combination that these people don't do often enough. But there could be something with different dishes or sauces that we infuse into it.

What if it's Dosajang?

Dosajang.

Yeah.

I love it.

That's actually a pretty cool name. Dosajang.

I love it. We've got our boy band name. Eric, this is it.

All right. Vivek, I'm telling you, Coachella 2025. It's happening.

Now there we go.

Dosajang is happening.

I will finish my tenure as Surgeon General. I'll be a civilian and we will get our boy band on here with Dosajang.

It's going to be incredible. We're going to make a docu-series behind it as well. It's just going to be the most viral moment. TikTok's going to love it. It's going to be everywhere. (both laughs)

This is fantastic. Oh man. Eric, this is so great to talk to you. And I got to say, in addition just appreciating your path and who you are and just so many amazing themes that have come up here from hardship to courage and from isolation to just connection and the healing that you got from friends. I just appreciate how vulnerable and open you have been and I know that's not an easy thing to do and every culture is different, but I know here in our home in America, it's not always easy to do, and especially I thing for a lot of guys being really open about how you're feeling doesn't always come easy. But man, I'll tell you one thing is that I feel like whenever people show up honestly in the way that you have, folks respond and as scary as it can seem, I think you're living proof that there's a real hunger for that kind of honesty and vulnerability. So I just so appreciate who you are, what you do, what you're bringing to the world and I hope there are ways that we can find to work together to help improve and advance the mental health of the world.

Yeah, I mean, thank you, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor. Also such a pleasure to get to know you. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. I don't think I've felt this at ease in a podcast or an interview in a very long time. So I really, really appreciate it and thank you for all you do and for being America's doctor. And hopefully we can do some really, really great things together and hopefully just, you know, stay in touch and be friends, and 'cause we got to work on Dosajang.

Absolutely. Well, here's what we know.

That's like the most important thing, so.

That is absolutely. We will stay in touch. We will be friends and I'll make sure before this all closes out that we exchange numbers. But as we wrap up, my last question for you is what gives you hope? There's a lot of darkness in the world, a lot of challenges, a lot of people are reading scary headlines on the papers every day. But when you look out into the future, what gives you hope?

What gives me hope? I want to believe that there is still a lot of good in this world. I want to believe that there are people with great intentions, with brilliant minds who are fighting every day for great outcomes not only for us, but for everybody around the world. And there are so many incredibly brilliant people in the world that I think will get there. And sometimes we look at the news and we hear about things that are happening. It can be very, very draining and exhausting but I just trust that like, as we all collectively manifest a better future and better days and we'll all get there. So, it can be hard. I'll be honest, sometimes I'm like very, very down on it but I look at people like yourself. I look at people who are young and passionate about making change and being innovative and they give me hope for a future that is brighter and better, even better than what we are now. And yeah.

I love it. That is beautiful and so on point because I think you're exactly right. Deep inside, we are good people, we are kind people, we are generous people, and we are compassionate people. And that may not always come out, we're not always our best selves. It may not make the news or be what we talk about on TV but it's who we are and if we look closely, I think we can see that light around us and our neighbors and our community members and our friends. And so, I love that you highlighted that and I love that we had this conversation. So, thank you so much Eric and I'm excited for us to stay in touch.

Absolutely. Thank you so much and definitely stay in touch. I'm going to get writing on Dosajang and-

Awesome.

Thank you so much to all the listeners for having me as well. Really, really appreciate you all.

I appreciate you too, Eric. Thanks for joining this conversation with Eric Nam. Join us next time here on House Calls with Dr. Vivek Murthy. In the meantime, take care, and hope you find some time to connect with a loved one.