House Calls Podcast

Taking the Path of Most Resistance

With guest Kal Penn,

Actor & Author

Hello and welcome to House Calls. I'm Vivek Murthy, and I have the honor of serving as U.S. Surgeon General. I'd like to introduce you to Kal Penn, an actor, author, and former White House staffer. We believe conversations can be healing. And today, we'll be talking about understanding, accepting and staying true to ourselves, even when it feels like the world expects us to be someone else. This episode is about accepting ourselves for who we are.

Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning into House Calls. Here's a question that's been on my mind. What do you do when who you want to be and who the world tells you to be are different? In a world of stereotype and expectations, how do we figure out who we are? Kal Penn has had to answer this question for himself. Growing up as a child of Indian immigrants in a close knit ex-pat community, Kal always knew that he marched to the beat of his own drum. Around every corner, he had to overcome barriers, from defying community expectations in pursuing a career in the arts to encountering shocking racism as an actor of color. His career trajectory was similarly nontraditional, as his acting roles ranged from the “Harold and Kumar” series to award winning indies such as Mira Nair’s “The Namesake.” And at a pivotal moment in his career when he was a regular on the popular medical drama “House,” Kal left acting to go work as a White House staffer in the Obama administration. Kal also recently released his memoir, “You Can't Be Serious,” which captures his extraordinary journey. Through it all, he has managed to stay true to himself and pursue his passions at every turn, despite the naysayers. His story is a beautiful illustration of the importance of knowing yourself and staying the course, even when it means you're swimming upstream. What I love about this conversation is Kal’s authenticity and his moving stories and what I hope you'll remember from this conversation is when the world tells you to be someone different than who you are, listen to yourself. Stay true to your path. And don't be shy about leaning on others for help because we all need each other.

Kal, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. I'm so glad that we're talking today.

Yeah, same here. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Well, listen, let me just tell you why I'm so excited to talk to you. I mean, there are so many topics that are in my head that I want to ask you about. But one of the most important themes, you know, that's been on my mind recently has been this question about what do we do when the world is telling us that we have to be a certain person but who we really want to be someone different? Yeah. How do we navigate that disparity? How do we close that gap or not close that gap and just say we're going to go our own way? How do you really learn to know yourself and accept, like who you are? Yeah. And that means accept your identity, accept the things you're interested in and actually pursue them. And in particular, like, how do we find ways to accept who we are when maybe the people around us and society around us are telling us that maybe what we want isn't to be desired or it's not as valuable? And I know that you've you've had to grapple with this a lot. I want to start actually just with growing up. You and I share a lot of things in common, but one of them is that we're both the children of immigrants who came to this country from India. And I'd love to know what that experience was like for you growing up as an Indian-American in New Jersey.

Yeah, sure. And by the way, I'm so glad you asked that question because it's and I'm curious what you've heard as you've traveled around the country, because that question of of belonging or how to sort of navigate a world where other folks might have different expectations of you or your identity or your dreams and aspirations in life, it's so different for each individual and each scenario of how somebody was brought up, where they live, what that it is that they want to do and in my case, you're right. My parents, like yours, are immigrants from India. My brother and I were born and raised in New Jersey. And from you know, the context here, I think that's important to recognize, I am I'm the kid of immigrants who were allowed to come to America because we had a labor shortage in fields like engineering and medicine. So for folks who are listening or watching, who don’t know, 1965 immigration laws changed because we didn't have enough American born folks in these fields. So that's the biggest reason why you see so many brown and yellow doctors and engineers. It's not because there's anything inherent in our DNA. It's that that's why our parents were allowed to come here. And so in my case, and I assume you're the community you grew up in as well, the expectation or the pressure as we grew up was, well, you know, mom and dad and all the aunties and uncles and relatives and extended family, their version of the American dream was only achieved through this idea of what the career was, right? Engineering or medicine allowed us to come to America. It allowed us to do this thing. Therefore, that's also what you're going to do. And aside from just being terrible at science and math, I had an interest in the arts from as far back as I can remember. And so navigating that, you know, when I was younger and expressed a little bit of interest in, hey, is this a career like maybe this is a thing I could do. The thing I would hear over and over again from our own community was, well, that's a perfectly nice hobby, but we don't do that as a career and that we was meant to indicate the Indian-American community. So it was so strange to me that a passion like the arts, which had nothing to do with identity, was being told to me that something I couldn't do because of identity. And so that was as a kid, just a really weird thing to have to figure out.

I'm having all of these memories as you're as you're talking about conversations with uncles and aunties at parties growing up where that expectation is very clear and it was clear in who they held up as successful. Right. And who they lauded. It was the person who got into medical school. That was the person who was going to become an engineer. It was a young person who aspired to, you know, to become a doctor. Those were the sort of the models that were approved, in a sense. And so I can see how going outside of that would be tough. To me, there's an irony here, right, which is that part of what your parents, my parents and generations of immigrants came here and were able to achieve was not just economic sustenance, but also freedom for their children to be able to pursue different dreams. Definitely. Dreams that perhaps were far wider and broader than anything they could have imagined when they first came here. Yet taking advantage of those opportunities isn't always so easy because we're still confined sometimes by prior generations.

Yeah, definitely. Look it, I, I remember there was I just wrote this book where I outlined this in I hope funny terms. But, you know, I have all these memories of being in high school when I really had this passion for the arts and really thought maybe, you know, now I know that film school is a real thing that people can go to or drama school is a real thing. And so I have these memories of all of these aunties and uncles. So extended family. People were not necessarily related to you by blood, but who had the same immigration experience as my parents and who were very, very close friends, almost like family. You know, we'd all be sitting around when my parents would have their friends over, and inevitably one auntie or uncle would ask all the kids, you know, how are your grades and what do you want to do when you graduate? And without fail, everyone had some version of a science related field. And then it got to me an like, well, what about you? And I would say, well, I, I really want to go to UCLA or NYU and major in theater and film. And it was almost like those early 2000 movies were like, there's a record scratch and everyone's looking at me and I feel like I feel like I'm being dissected. And then I remember hearing, you know, different aunties going over to my mom to say things like, it's okay, we'll have our son talk to him. And that son would be like a third year medical student, right? So there was that that kind of pressure. But also it was just a I think, a confusion on the part of the parents also like where did we go wrong? Why does he want to do this thing? And when I got to college, I did, by the way, the thing that really helped I, I went to a public high school district that had an arts magnet program in it, so a publicly funded arts high school. And I got in and I think my parents let me go because they were hoping it was a phase. So I think they were like, all right. Well, also that, you know, it to be fair, they were also all considered honors classes because it was a magnet program. So it inflated your GPA a bit. So I'm sure that had something to do with it. But because of that, I had the opportunity to apply and had some guidance on applying to to the nation's top theater and film schools. And I was very surprised that I ended up getting in. My my dad actually was sort of supportive and helped me kind of navigate. I remember there was this one audition for NYU’s theater program or, sorry, UCLA's theater program, where I ultimately ended up going. Their auditions were in New York City, and we lived outside of New York City, and there was a big snowstorm the day of the audition. And I knew my parents didn't want me to go to theater or film school, but my dad just sort of looks at me, he looks at the weather and he realizes the trains are all shut down. And my plan was to take the train into the city and walk to this audition. And he goes, Come on, hurry up, you're going to be late. I said, What do you mean? I'm trying to figure out how to do this. The trains are all shut. He goes, Yeah, I'm taking you. Hurry up. It's going to be a long drive. And I, oh my God. You know, I was so thankful for this, and I I wasn't quite sure why. And the only thing that I figured out was he knew how important this was to me, that I at least tried and tried to figure out if I could have a shot at this passion of mine. And also, to be fair, I mean, he's the one who moved halfway around the world at 20-something. So to drive his kids to a college that was across the country, maybe not that big of a deal, but I was I was very thankful. We didn't speak about this at any great length. I did end up going to UCLA. And Vivek, going back to your actual question, I was floored. When I got to UCLA, the Indian students on campus had the same views as their parents, so I was sort of the outcast brown kid on campus because I was the only one, as they put it, who was majoring in theater or film. And I remember signing up for, you know, there was a like a thing where you could sign up for all these clubs and organizations. And I remember going over to the Indian Student Union table and just sort of introducing myself, and I signed up for their email list. And the woman who was taking the sign ups said, you know, what's your name? Where are you from? What are you majoring in? I said, Oh, my name's Kalpen, which is my real name. I said, I'm a majoring in theater and film. I'm from New Jersey. And she laughed and she goes, No, really, what are you majoring in? And I said, No, I know it's not as common, but I am a theater and film major. It's nice to meet you. And her face turned sour. She almost looked like an auntie, and she looked at the person behind me ignoring me, and just said, Hey, what's your name? Where are you from? What do you majoring in? And they never added me to their email list. I mean, it's petty, right? It's just dumb and petty. As an adult, I kind of look back and laugh at it, but at the time it definitely reminded me that I didn't belong in my own community, not because of any choice of mine. And I remember hearing things like, Oh, you're such a sellout. You're not doing what your community wants. And in my head I'm like, I'm bilingual, almost trilingual, right? I speak English, Gujarati and some Hindi. I am very comfortable with who I am, and it's just that other folks seem very jarred by the fact that I am comfortable with who I am. So it was a weird thing, I mean, for sure that made me have a chip on my shoulder in my late teens, early twenties on a college campus, because I didn't feel like I had a sense of community. Easy to laugh about now, obviously, as an adult it’s like, okay, I've dealt with all that stuff.

You're generous with saying that it wasn't a big deal back then, but like, I'm picturing you going to UCLA, leaving everything you knew behind, being part of an entirely new community and environment, and then feeling like you're brushed off by somebody who, in fact, was part of the Indian-American community and it should have embraced you. And I think as it is, transitions are tough and going to college is tough. I mean, I know for me, when I went to college, it was one of the loneliest times of my life. And it took me a long time to really find friends and a sense of community.

I'm glad you said that. I think the I think the part of it that that made things somewhat palatable was it to me, it was a very clear answer that these are just not your people. Right. Like you're you're going to college, you’re 18, got into one of the best theater and film programs in the world. The Indian Student Union are not your people. They're just not. It's a bunch of biology majors. They have nothing in common with you aside from ethnicity. So it also showed me, like, find your people, you know, just don't waste your energy feeling shunned by people you thought were going to be folks who you had something in common with. Did it bum me out? Yes, of course. Because there was a cultural similarity and a background that I was looking forward to getting to know folks from from, you know, a similar upbringing. But but there were so many incredible creative people in the theater world and in on campus who had other interests that I identified with. I'm as bad as I am at science. I like love astronomy. And so, you know, taking astronomy classes that also, by the way, didn't have a whole lot of brown people in them. There were other ways that I that I found my folks and my community and my passion. But to your point about what this whole podcast is about, it wasn't definitely not through the folks who I initially thought would be people who would embrace me.

You know, what’s striking to me, Kal, is it seems like by the time you got to college, that you had, I think, a remarkable amount of clarity on who you wanted to be, you know, at least what path you wanted to pursue. But tell us a little bit about how you got there, because I was struck by a story that you write about regarding your guidance counselor and how early in school you were open with your guidance counselor about the fact that you had an interest, you know, in in film and theater and acting and were brushed off and were, in fact, given a diagnostic test at one point that came back indeterminate because it said that your your interests were too broad. So how did you come to that point of clarity? And who were what helped you?

So that guidance counselor you're right, she starting in 10th grade, I think she said, you know, you should start thinking about what you want to do after high school. And I said, I'd like to go to college. And I exactly what you said. I had mentioned theater and film school, but I also said, look, I have an interest in public service and international relations, and that's something I'd like to do as well. And she just with just total commitment said, Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, so you're going to have to pick something. It's like, what kind of advice is that? You're a guidance counselor. I'm 15. Like, aren't you supposed to be like, the world is your oyster? Did she not watch Sesame Street as a child? I don't know. So the problem was then, you know, she and my parents would obviously talk. And so then my parents grew fearful about, you know, what is he going to do. The tests that you're talking about, she did give me this diagnostic that was supposed to help guide kids who I guess they thought were lost or needed some extra guidance on what you should do after high school. So whatever this diagnostic was, it was supposed to tell you things that you could do after high school. And if you chose college, things you could major in and careers that you could have. And it came back and she was laughing when I went back to her office because she said, to your point, I've never seen something like this. You broke the test. The test said that the results are inconclusive because your your your interests truly are too varied. So I guess you might have a good time doing whatever you want to do. So good luck. And she really had nothing else to offer in that sense. I think my takeaway from that, you know, and by the way, I was seriously hoping that it would it would tell me one specific thing to be, but it didn't. And so I kind of then I leaned on other folks. You know, the guy who was the director of the Performing Arts Magnet Program was wonderful and kind of said, you know, you should go to a I wouldn't go to a small school. I would go to a big university because then you can sort of pick and choose the kind of classes that you want to take. You'll have exposure to things that will guide you a little bit better. And and that was you know, that was very helpful. And I think, you know, like a lot of arts programs, I mean, I mentioned this publicly funded arts high school I went to. The misnomer is that when we invest in the arts, we're we're pumping out more artists. And obviously, that's a wonderful byproduct when that becomes true. But in the majority of cases, when you invest in the arts, you're making people better holistic learners. So they're better at they're better at math, they're better at science. They're you know, that's the big difference between engineering and innovation, is somebody who had a who also had an arts background. So I think when he was giving me that advice, it wasn't solely from the purpose of go out there and be a professional actor, but it was from the perspective of take the skillset that you have and figure out your place in that world. You know, maybe it's a trial lawyer, maybe it's a professor, maybe it's something that involves not to say the trial lawyers are performative, but but, you know, some aspect of the skill set that I valued that I had along with the other interests that I had. So he was really pivotal, I think, in helping me define things that my guidance counselor wasn't able to.

Gosh what you said there is just so powerful. I think it's very deep insight that I want to underscore, which is that you're sometimes these pursuits that we may, you know, you know, go after or the education that we may seek out is really helpful in giving us skills and perspective that could inform any career path that we take and the acquisition of skills isn't always about our career path. Sometimes it's about adding perspective to our life and dimension to, you know, to how we look at the world. And so I think it's really powerful that you were able to see and get that at a young age. You certainly seem to have had a lot more clarity on, on this and where you wanted to go than I did when I was at that stage in high school. What did you think you wanted to be at that at that stage? Well, you know, I'll tell you, I was I got actually very interested in in medicine early on, not so much because of the aunties and uncles around me, but because my mom and dad ran a medical clinic in Miami. And I was a pretty shy kid, Kal, growing up. And, you know, it took me a while to sort of make friends. So on evenings and weekends, I spent a lot of my time actually in the clinic, you know, with my parents just helping out, you know, and it was opening mail, cleaning, greeting patients, filing papers, a lot of that work. But in the process I got to see what they were doing and I didn't understand a lot about the science at the time. But what I did understand, just at a very human level, was that these people who they were caring for would come in looking anxious and worried and stressed, and then they would walk out of the clinic 30, 45 minutes, an hour later, looking more reassured that they had a partner in their healing. And I just would listen to the conversations my parents would have over weekends and nights with their patients when they would call in and they had an urgent concern, like many a time we would be driving somewhere and we'd have to like stop and go, you know, to a patient's house. My father or mother could go in and visit them and see how they were because something had come up. And sometimes those were frustrating and annoying as a kid, you know, would feel like, oh, you know, like, who are these people who are taking my parents time? And I want to be hanging out with them and but they're not here for us. But over time, I came to really admire what they were doing, the relationships they were building. So so that was my inspiration. But in high school and college, actually, because of reassessing what I wanted to do, I started to get really interested in English literature, in history and in economics. And I went to college thinking maybe I wanted to pursue one of those areas. So college was a time of, of, of exploring and confusion for me. So yeah, which is not a bad thing. I guess ultimately. Not at all, no. In fact, I look back on it now and while in some ways life would have been easier if I knew the one thing I wanted to do and just kept on that track and didn’t deviate. But it would have been less rich, less interesting. And I actually think the experiences I had outside your point have actually made me a better doctor, because of the perspective that I've gained. Yeah, but some of that perspective was, you know, was not always easily gained. And one of the things that struck me about your story, Kal, is you talk a lot about the experience that you went through, being bullied when you were younger, and that struck a personal chord with me as well, because I also struggled a lot with being bullied as a child. But I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that experience and what do you take away from that? How do you think about that now, years later, reflecting back on being bullied as a kid?

Yeah, you know, I only half jokingly actually say that that was when I was in eighth grade there was no term called bullying. It was just called being in eighth grade. Right. Right.

I agree with you.

So there's this like universality of like, yeah, middle school sucks for everybody. But nowadays, thankfully, whether it's through terminology or just through people's greater understanding of things, it's like, Yeah, but can't we help it suck less? Like, Yes, yes we can.

It’s a worthy goal.

Yeah, right. So at the, at the time, mostly in eighth grade, you know, I went to a, the school that I went to for middle school different from my high school experience, also a suburb of New York City. But I, I like to say it was, for lack of a better phrase, and maybe there's actually a word for this, but it was like it was white diverse. So what I mean is there weren't a whole lot of people of color, but there was a lot of diversity within the kids who I did go to school with. There were a lot of kids who were second generation, you know, like myself, who spoke a different language at home or whose grandparents spoke a different language at home, who, you know, maybe had a lot of Italian, Polish, Jewish families. So the food they would eat, the holidays, they would celebrate, oftentimes different. So there was not the sense, I think, when a lot of kids talk about being bullied or even sort of identity in early school days, I never had that sense of feeling like I had a foot in two different worlds. And especially a lot of Asian-Americans feel this way. And I completely understand why, though that wasn't my experience. Part of that was because the kids who I was surrounded by also had things going on in their home lives that were culturally distinct. So I don't think I don't remember feeling like I was any less American because of that. In fact, if anything, I just sort of thought, well, yeah, your grandparents speak four languages. You celebrate this holiday. That's what America is. You know, what was jarring was two things. One, the one I would express my interest in the arts, having the kind of Indian-American community told me that that was wrong. But then the the bullying in middle school, most of it stemmed, I think, from the fact that I was just a nerdy kid who was in drama club. Not the cool thing to be in, but the, you know, when you would kind of get beat up in the hallway or get, you know, spit on on the bus or something like that, I had started realizing that there were, you know, kids would do things like, quote, Apu from The Simpsons when that was happening. And I was like, wait a second. So you know that there's an added element here that they're putting in. And the only people that they have exposure to who look like me in their minds are cartoon characters voiced by white actors. So, like, that's so interesting that, I mean, interesting is the wrong word. At the time, I probably had, you know, stronger thoughts in my head about what it felt like, but I was like, oh, it was it was one of the first times that I recognized the power of the images that we see. And that tied very deeply into what I loved about the fact that I was in drama club. I just enjoyed storytelling. I loved making people laugh or smile or feel some emotion. The thing that really changed that dynamic for me was in in eighth grade, I was the Tin Man in the in “The Wiz,” the school play of “The Wiz,” the urban “Wizard of Oz.” And that meant that every day on the late bus ride home, we had the drama kids had to share a late bus with the soccer players because they were they were practicing while we were rehearsing. So that just meant torment every day. Every day we were just tormented by these by these jocks. Right. And before the play went up, our director said, hey, you guys are going to do three scenes from the play in front of the whole school. And we said, absolutely not. If the parents want to come see the play in the evening, that's very different, but forcing the whole school to watch what we're doing is going to be it's just terrible for us. They forced us to do it. And I remember the I really just had a couple of lines in this one scene. That's where the Tin Man gets his heart from the wizard of Oz. And the line as scripted was, I was supposed to get this heart and I was supposed to say, All you fine ladies out there, watch out. And it was this kind of adorable line that's meant to indicate the Tin Man now has a heart and he's capable of finding love. And instead, what happened was I was so nervous that all these these kids were out there who hated me and who I hated. And I walked to the end of the edge of the stage after I got my heart and with bravado that I don't know how I mustered. I just said, all you fine ladies out there. And I did a massive pelvic thrust towards the audience and I just said, Watch out. And as soon as that happened, the first of all, everybody applauded. Girls started screaming, Everyone stood up. They were all laughing. And I just thought, Oh my God, I'm really in so much trouble. Why did I just do that? It's my first experience with what actors call being in the zone where the character just takes over and you have no idea what's happening. But after the on the bus ride that evening, I never got in trouble, by the way, the bus ride that evening after rehearsal, the soccer player started applauding when we got on the bus and they said that was amazing. That was so funny. Why didn't you guys tell us that's what you were doing? And two thoughts I had. I remember feeling like the onus is not on me to not get bullied like what a ridiculous question. Why didn't we tell you that's what we were doing. But the second piece of it that really resonated and I think was was life changing in some ways, was recognizing the magic of storytelling Like here these guys who had preconceived notions A, and in fairness, like would have gotten bullied no matter what I looked like because I was just that kid. But, B, the aspect of race or ethnicity that was added to that bullying was suddenly all the wind was taken out of that because they saw something that they could identify with. They had no expectations going into it. They laughed with somebody about something that they found engaging and so that the power of the arts that was tied into that was something that I found a value on pretty early on. And I don't know who else you're going to have on the podcast, but I would imagine almost all of the comedians, especially in standup, a lot of times comedy comes from a dark place, or the recognition of wanting to make people laugh can come from a dark place. And I, I can trace some of that back certainly to eighth grade and discovering the magic of that storytelling. And one of the reasons I probably liked it so much.

It's striking to me how sometimes just a single moment in your life of clarity when you're in the zone and you have the courage to go with it, can just turn things around. Yeah, it sounds like that moment changed how you looked at yourself, at how all of these other folks looked at you as well in a way that was really positive.

Yeah, definitely. And look, to be fair, it's not like from that day on, there was no bullying, you know what I mean? But but it was a it was a tool that definitely changed perspectives. But also give me a little more nuance to understanding that you can tell a 14 year old that bullies are insecure, but that means nothing when you're 14, right? So you're like, what does that even mean? Of course, they're not insecure. They're beating me up every day. But as an adult, you know that that's true. But as a kid, realizing that through an experience like this was definitely pivotal.

And it's a really good point you raised. I think it's worth underscoring, which is that both the people who are bullied and the people doing the bullying are often hurt in some way inside and and we've got to understand where that is coming from. I do want to say, though, you know, again, as somebody reading your and your book, by the way, is amazing. I thinking it's such a beautiful account of not just your life, but your insights and your learnings. And you have such poignant stories in that book having written, you know, spent time writing as well, I know how painful the process of putting a book together can be. So just congratulations on and getting it done and getting it out to the world and we're better off for it. But there is a one story, though, that to me is a bright light in your account of bullying. And that's the story of Mr. Manziano. Can you tell us about him?

Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad that resonated with you. I just mentioned it in passing, and I wish I had added a little more color to it. Mr. Manziano was our band teacher, and he was encouraging and incredible and he and I never explicitly talked about this. So the first time I actually even mentioned it to anyone was when I was writing the book because I was remembering he would always give any student a pass to come and practice music. I'm putting that in quotes for folks who are listening and watching. Practice music during your lunch period. Because the cafeteria was one of the more notoriously just awful places if you were a kid getting bullied. And as you might imagine, I don't know if middle school’s changed since I was there. I would imagine in this way it hasn't. But, you know, kids in band and drama club and stuff like that, you're you're not one of the cool kids. Or at least not, I was not one of the cool kids. So Mr. Manziano would give anyone a pass who wanted to come and practice during their lunch period. And what that really meant was anybody who didn't want to eat in the cafeteria. So he would never monitor to see if you were actually practicing your instrument, though most of us often did anyway. But it turned into, Here's a safe place where you can eat your lunch with other kids without annoying bullies, like shouting things that you are making fun of you. So I thought that was really nice of him and very, you know, very kind. Obviously wished that on the administration level, there was the same concern because you knew that the principal and vice principal and all these other teachers knew what was going on. They just didn't care very much. But Mr. Manziano cared and he created this space for us that I was very thankful for.

I'm so glad that you had Mr. Manziano.

Yeah, me too.

And and it's a reminder to me also just have when somebody is going through a difficult time, whether it's being bullied, whether it's dealing with another hardship in life, sometimes it is small things that we can do to just create a space for them to be comfortable. That could be just listening to them if they're struggling or letting them know that you're there for them. Those can make a huge difference in those moments. Just to know that somebody's got your back. Definitely glad he was there for you.

Yeah, same. Did you have a Mr. Manziano?

You know, that's a good question. I had I had a my European history teacher in high school in 10th grade. Miss Beth Bagwell was the person who created safe space for me. She was really amazing. And I was, you know, you know, I was not at that time thinking that I was going to go into something related to history. But she inspired me to actually think differently about history as something I could potentially do and her class, actually, in many ways was a refuge for me. And so not dissimilar to what you're saying sometimes even during lunch break, I would just go and eat lunch in her classroom because it was as a young kid who, you know, was trying to figure out my own identity and often didn't feel like I quite fit in, whenever I was in her classroom, I felt like I fit in, like I was at home. Yeah. So I still stay in touch with her, Actually, to this day, she's just an incredible human being. You know, after you, I know that leaving middle school, didn't mean that the bullying ended and it didn't mean that your experience of discrimination ended either. But as you've written about and spoken about, even like getting into and breaking into the the world of movies and television shows, etc., that required overcoming serious stereotypes and bias and discrimination as well. But I wonder if you could speak a little bit, Kal, about about that experience of breaking in. What was that like for you and what did you do to keep going when you were encountering all of these instances where doors were being closed to you, not because of your lack of talent, but because of your racial and ethnic identity?

Yeah, thanks for asking that. So after high school and actually to be fair, after college. So in college, even though I was going to UCLA School of theater, film and television, where where a lot of my peers, my fellow theater students, they were all getting agents or managers right away. And for folks who were unfamiliar with the process, an agent is sort of like a headhunter in more traditional jobs. So they’re somebody who helps you get a job in the acting field and makes a percentage of your salary if you're successful in getting the job. So nobody's going to sign you as their as your agent if they don't feel like they're going to make their 10% worth. Right. And so I was not getting an agent. Years were going by and every Wednesday I would send my photo and my resume, cold, to these lists of agents that you could purchase from the drama drama bookstore in Los Angeles. And so years of doing this every Wednesday and I wasn't getting any calls and I had a very good friend who is still a wonderful friend. Her name is Jenna von Oÿ, an incredible actor and a musician. She at the time had this A-list manager and she said, It's crazy to me that you're not getting any responses. Can I please take your your headshot, your resume? And in those days, you would have I mean, now it's on a link, but like a VHS or a DVD of scene scene work that you've done. So in my case, that was just student films or things that I had monologues I had put on tape, said, Can I bring all that stuff to my manager? I don't know if he'll sign you, but at least I'll meet with you and give you advice on what's not working. I said Yes, that would be amazing. Whatever it is that’s not working I want to fix. So please, this is like getting A-list advice would be incredible. So I gave her all the stuff she called me a week later and she goes, So bad news. He doesn't want to meet with you. I’m like, oh, he doesn't even want to meet with me? She goes, No, how much of why do you want to know? I said, I want to know everything. I want to, because whatever it is that's even preventing me from meeting like I will change whatever that is to to get my foot in the door and she said, well, so two things. First, he said that you're very good. He watched the tape and he said you were very, very good. And I just have to tell you, there's no reason for him to tell me that, like if he didn't feel that that was true, he would have told me that that was that was the case, that you were just not a good actor, like, oh, okay. Well, now I'm even more confused. What's the “but?” She goes so the “but” is that he said the reason that he doesn't want to even meet with you is that somebody who looks like you is never going to work enough in Hollywood to make it worth his while to earn that ten or 15% commission. And so it just he didn't want to waste your time or his time by even taking the meeting because he knows he's just never going to sign you. And I thanked her. I mean, that that kind of candor was it is rare to get in any field. But the big takeaway, obviously, is, oh, the glass ceiling is so high and the barrier to entry is so high that it's not anything that I could do with my skill set. It's not anything I could do with my my talents or my hard work. This barrier to entry solely has to do with race and ethnicity, and I am thankful that I know this. And now I have to figure out how to overcome that. And I think for for the kids of most immigrants, you kind of you grow up knowing that you're going to have to work a thousand times harder than other people just to get your foot in the door. But this was a reminder of that. And so then, you know, kind of began a more strategic look at what do I actually have to do. The following year, maybe it was the year after, I finally got a call from one agent and I I'm going to mention I know this is not a podcast about politics, but I do think it's important to recognize what I'm about to say because it kind of changed my outlook on the way that we're taught to think about politics, where, you know, we're taught to think blue versus red and everything is so polarized. Right. And we think of Hollywood as this progressive, diverse place and everything, you know, especially nowadays, depending on which articles you read, you know, you're, oh, gosh, Hollywood is so left leaning and all of that. And the one agent who called and was willing to meet with me and ultimately represented me for years was very conservative, very Republican, very right leaning. And in an industry that's credited with being so diverse, none of those people wanted to represent me at all. And instead it was this wonderful Republican woman who who wanted to take the shot and thought it was ridiculous that nobody else was. You know, I'm sure you could pick that apart in a million different ways if this were a political podcast. But the big takeaway for me was people's expectations will often surprise you, and the people who will be your allies may also surprise you. And I was very thankful to her. So she then helped me navigate what became several years of realizing when I would go out on auditions and she could get me in for, you know, a little two, three-line part. And to be fair, look, every actor, when they start out, you take you take tiny parts. There's always typecasting. People will always let you audition only for the things that they think look like. So, you know, you're six four with blond hair from Iowa. You’re probably playing a lot of quarterbacks when you start out, you know, or you're whatever that is. In the case of folks who look like us, those opportunities, especially in the late nineties or early two, thousands were much more limited because there weren't very many producers or casting directors or directors who were willing to cast folks like us in in roles. So I would end up going out for things that were either already stereotypes, you know, where they would want you to kind of put on their version of what an Indian accent is, or just two or three line bit parts and and to be clear, you know, I don't think an accent alone makes a stereotype. Plenty of people have accents. In fact, even within the South Asian community, sometimes you'll hear something like, oh gosh, he had to play a cab driver. As if a cab driver is somehow inherently not a noble profession. Like these guys worked their asses off. Of course it is. I think what folks are trying to say is that for smaller parts where the profession of the character is tied to race or ethnicity or identity, and those small parts don't move the plot of the story along, it's a stereotype. It becomes, you know, reductionist. And those were the early roles that, you know, you would end up going out for. I was very frustrated by this, obviously. I'm like, I'm going to I just graduated from one of the best theater schools in the in the world. I'm not asking for somebody to fling doors open and give me a job I don't deserve. But I want the opportunity to work hard. Like I don't want this this barrier to entry that exists. And so she sort of helped me navigate that and said, look, you're going to have to audition for and even accept roles that you don't want to take in order to build up your resume. Because I can't get you in the door for bigger jobs if you have nothing on your resume. And obviously that made sense, right? That's that was just the time period. So navigating that was frustrating, Vivek, going back to your actual question, you know, I think so often when people talk about these things like, you know, I remember going on talk shows early in my career where I thought, hey, it'd be interesting to have a conversation like this. And the host would basically go, This is a five minute segment. People do not want to hear about that. They want to hear about like fun stories about what it was like being on set. And so I'm thankful that we can have this conversation because I think so often, you know, folks don't want to have conversations about what sacrifice was like, what failure looked like. And frankly, the the the days and months that I would sit there and go, I think this isn't for me. Maybe I should give up. Maybe I should do something else. Maybe I should go to law school or be a, you know, real estate agent, two great professions on their own, but but with a lot more stability than, than anything in the arts. We don't talk about that that often that self-doubt obviously creeps in a lot. And the one real thing, the one real thing that was a bit of a game changer for me was I had recognized after years of really only getting to audition for bit parts that were stereotypical or reductionist. On the rare occasion when, you know, I would get an audition for a scene in a movie or a TV show, and it was like a guy named Mike from Cincinnati, right? I knew that I was never going to get to play Mike from Cincinnati. And what that meant was that I wasn't preparing the way that I should as a professional actor. I was going into the audition expecting that somebody was going to ask me to do an Indian accent, which would happen, you know, even for roles that weren't written Indian that they were going to say or do something that made it clear that I wasn't getting the job because of what I look like. And so the end result of that was I was already deciding for them that I was not worthy of the job before I went in. I had decided I wasn't going to get it. And so things got to a point in my in my personal and professional life where, you know, I'm working various odd jobs. And I was I was, you know, I think my rent was like 500 bucks a month. And I was I was trying to scrape everything together. And I thought, why am I going on these auditions if I've already decided that I'm not getting the part? I mean, I should be going in there with my head held high, fully preparing. I understand I felt beaten up over years of rejection. But why am I making that decision for them? If that's the deal, go to law school. Like leave this profession. Do something that's actually going to be fulfilling. And I had lost my way over the course of those years. So I remember just being in the shower one day, having this realization, and I thought, Great, so take the LSAT or like, you know, do that other thing. And the realization was, it's not that simple. When you're an artist, and this, I think, is the big difference, right, between whether something is a hobby or whether it's a career, I can't. My calling is this. My calling is the arts. So I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to go and take a route that's a little more stable or a little more straightforward. Instead, what I'm going to have to do is, is have that conversation with this wonderful agent and figure out how I'm going to approach these auditions with a different attitude and a different plan. I mean, the attitude obviously is personal and all that. But but it's also a business, right? This is your job. There's a there's an aspect to this that's not just about your passion or the art, but it's strategic. And so how do you develop a strategic plan? What are you actually going to do to get work and what's your definition of happiness and success? And so that really changed and shifted for me, how I was going to approach things. I think to be clear that nothing changed overnight, right? Like it still took years and years after that for for anything to change. But that was a big eye-opener for me in in kind of juggling both identity, diversity, business and where opportunities were coming from.

You know, Kal, I'm just marveling at your resolve, I mean, at a time where you could have given up, you actually double down on the path that you were passionate about. And I think, you know, for folks out there who are listening to this, I think many of us can probably see ourself in story to some extent because many people out there have tried something, maybe not gotten the response they wanted and felt really beaten down over time. And had to ask themselves the question, Do I give up or do I keep trying? Like, Am I? And sometimes this it's framed in different ways, right? Sometimes we say to ourselves, Well, we just got to grow up and do the practical thing. Yeah, you know, and or what, but however we frame it, that's always so often a key question. Do we give up on our dreams or do we continue to pursue them? You know, what I'm curious about for you is clearly you had a lot of fire inside you, a lot of passion to want to pursue this. What else helped you stay on that path? Like were there people in your life where there was your faith? Were there other resources that you look to to help give you strength when you felt like, you know, your faith was wavering?

Yeah, I think part of it was finding, you know, finding a community of people who were like minded and who found joy in the thing, you know, the thing that we all wanted to do. So I had groups of friends who also were working odd jobs and juggling different part time jobs to pay for the gas money to go on an audition. And so those were the people who you could write a sketch with or you could do something that would feed your art. So having that kind of a supportive structure around and again, I credit, you know, Barbara Cameron, this wonderful agent where I was with for years with really being a grounding force where, you know, she her kids, Kirk and Candace Cameron, were actors as children and are still actors. And so she had this perspective as as a mom and especially as a as a conservative mom of faith, where How do you keep your family together and how do you keep your kids, for lack of a better word, grounded, normal when the profession that they're in is as children can be toxic or can make you question everything. Having just her input around or her guidance was was also really helpful. The other thing, you know, there was a woman this was also early in my career and I really have to credit her with a lot. The first real movie opportunity that I had in a studio film was for a Ryan Reynolds movie called Van Wilder. And it was this like, you know, college teen sex comedy, very similar to American Pie. In fact, I think it came out a year or two after American Pie. And I remember Barbara called me very excited that I had an audition for this movie. And she goes, Honey, I need you to come to the office. I want you to, you know, talk to me about the script. It's a great opportunity to supporting lead in a teen movie. Like if you get a credit like this on your resume, it'll open so many doors for you. And I said, Awesome, email me the script. What's the name of the character? I'll read it right away. She kept saying, You have to come to the office. I want to talk to you about it. I said what are you talking about? I'm so excited to read it now. I don't want to drive to your office so she said, Fine, if I if I send you the script, will you at least still promise to come like this week to talk to me about it? I said, yes. So she says, okay, I'm sending you the script. I said, What's the name of the character? She said, The name of the character is Taj Mahal. And I hung up the phone on her and she called me back and she's like, I had a feeling you might hang up on me. And I was like, Well, of course, I didn't graduate from one of the nation's top theater and film schools to play a guy named Taj Mahal. Let me guess. He's a stereotype. And she's like, well, look, yes, he's an exchange student. You know, it is that kind of a movie. And she said, But I have to tell you, one of the reasons that I can't get you bigger auditions is this what I then grew to call the Brown Catch 22, which is that if you don't have these bigger credits on your resume, you can't get bigger credits on your resume. And the entry point for performers of color, especially in the late nineties, early 2000s, was this this catch 22 of how do you actually get your foot in the door? So I auditioned for this movie. I decided to do it anyway. I read the script. The script was independently funny and unlike the more reductionist roles, what I thought was very interesting was this character named Taj Mahal, without that character, the plot of the film and Ryan Reynolds’ character would not, the arc of that film would never complete. So you take that character out and nothing happens with the plot. So unlike reductionist three line parts where the ethnicity is tied to the job and there's absolutely nothing that happens, this was different. So I thought, Wow, how do I navigate this? So I remember auditioning and thinking to myself, If I get the part, I'll figure out whether I want to say yes. I just want to see if I can get the part. And in the last audition round, I knew it was between me and another actor. I wasn't sure who it was going to be, and I walked into the final callback audition room and the other guy has arrived before me and it's a white dude in Brownface and he's sitting there ready for, you know, to get called into the audition. I just remember thinking, Huh, okay. I mean, I'm you're not allowed to have this part. Like, you're just not I'm not letting you have you can play Braydon from Iowa or Mike from Cincinnati. Like you're allowed to play those guys. I'm not allowed to do that. Therefore, you're not allowed to have this part. I mean, I didn't say this to him. My beef is not with other actors, but I was also super curious, like, who told you to put the brown face on? Did you do it at home? Did you drive to the audition that way? Like, what were the logistics of all of this? So so I decided that if I got the part, I was going to take it because this was the alternative, right? And so I did end up getting the part. There's one woman in terms of who was supportive and who sort of helped guide me. There was one woman who was the only at the time the only South Asian American working in network television, a woman named Sonia Nikore, who no longer works in the business. She was a vice president of casting at NBC, and I had met her briefly and she gave me her card and said, If I can ever be helpful to you, you know, let me know. But there was no reason to call. You know, in those days, the difference between me and her, there's a high powered executive. What am I going to what am I going to ask for a favor on? Like, can you put me in Friends? There are no people of color in Friends except in the later season with Aisha Tyler. But you know, like there's no favor to ask. This was a favor to ask just for her guidance. So I called her and I said, I don't know if you remember me. She did, thankfully. And I said, Here's the deal. There's the script, and I got this part and I'm trying to figure out if I should take it. And she said, Well, what are the considerations? I said, Well, my agent says that if I have a supporting lead in a studio film on my resume, it will open doors. And that barrier to entry will will be a little easier, she said. That's true, and she said it's especially true of performers of color right now. It's almost impossible for me to bring you in for any audition. And I'm an executive because the people at the top just won't allow it. So I said, okay. She goes, Let me ask you this. In the script, how many things were cringeworthy? How many things were sort of stereotypical and cringe worthy? And I said, I don't know, like 30. She goes, okay. And was there anything in the script that was genuinely funny as it pertains to your character? And I said, Yeah, of course, tons. He has an aspect of an arc in the script. It's not just a stereotype. She goes, okay, so you can you can pick ten things, pick ten things that are cringeworthy to you, and you can take those ten things to the writers and the director and have a conversation about them. And I thought, This is amazing. I didn't know this was the thing I could do because no, I'm not finished yet. You can bring those ten things to the writer and director, but you have to come up with ten things that are funnier than what they came up with. That's your job. And I said, Is that a thing I'm allowed to do? She said, Yes, they're hiring you because you're funny. So your job here, if you have a problem with ten of these things and you can't pick all three, but come up with ten jokes or ten bits that are funnier than what they came up with and present it to them. And I did and the director and writers were wonderful and we changed those ten things and you know, 20 would remain in the script. But the takeaway, Vivek, from this was I never considered because of how beaten down I was, I'd never considered that I had any agency in any of this. The idea that I could do the very thing that drew me to this career in the first place, which was making people laugh, I had just completely forgotten that I had any agency at all with regard to this. And the reason I'm happy to share the story in that you asked about it was that, yes, in my case, it has to do with film and entertainment and all of that. But that's a that idea that either we feel imposter syndrome or we feel that we have no agency at all in a certain matter that applies to so many of us in so many different points in our lives. And I was very thankful to Sonia for reminding me of that at that particular time.

That's incredible. And what's particularly incredible about that is that Sonia wasn't somebody who had known you for years and years, who was a family friend or was a parent. She was somebody you know who's relatively new in your life. Yet she was able to remind you of something so profound, which was that you do have agency and to help re-empower you in a sense, to take control of your experience. I will just say just as an Indian-American myself, seeing you on the screen, Kal, has been so exciting over the years and has just filled me with so much pride as an Indian-American, you know, whether it was “Harold and Kumar” or whether it was “Van Wilder,” which I loved, by the way. And I thought you did an amazing job. Thank you for all times over the years. But also, you know, I remember watching “Designated Survivor” with my wife Alice, and seeing you on there and just being so excited that you were on the screen. Thank you. But I think perhaps one of the most powerful performances for me that I've seen you in was “The Namesake.” And there's so many things we could talk about with regard to “The Namesake” and this beautiful story by, you know, that was pulled together by Mira Nair, you know, in this beautiful film. But there's one scene in particular which I will always remember, and it's when your character's father passes away and he's not actually in the same place as you are. He was working in another town and you go to actually pack up his belongings and get all of his his stuff together to bring back home. And that scene, when you open the door and you see his troubles, his slippers there, and you just you say, sorry. Yeah. No, it's yeah. But you say Baba, which means father, as you know, of course, but for those listening and this, the emotion in your voice and I always come back to that because it it spoke to me of this powerful relationship between kids and parents, you know, in that time you were playing an immigrant child. You are an immigrant yourself whose parents came over or the child of immigrant parents, as I am. And in that moment, I couldn't help but thinking about all the things our parents have done for us. And just the way you said his name, the way you call that him, seemed to capture the fullness of that and then the pain of loss that comes when somebody who has done so much for you in your life, you know, goes away. I've also just been struck in reading your writing about just how your family instilled such a sense of identity going to your grandparents. In your grandparents’ story, and you talk about them fighting for independence in India and protesting and being jailed for their protests against the British, I saw my own story. You know, my my family's story. My grandfather also protested against the British. He was jailed, you know, for those protests and beaten. And when I read about your grandfather showing you the scar on his leg, Yeah, from, you know, being beaten during those protests, it it just reminded me of the incredible sacrifices that our families have made to allow us to be where we are. So I just wanted to thank you for sharing those experiences, because for many of us out there, they just resonate so deeply.

Thank you, Vivek. And thank you for I can I can, you know, the artist in me is is very thankful that that scene in particular in The Namesake, was was so effective in conveying exactly, you know, what you got from that. And this is actually probably a great segue to try to wrap up that, you know, in this book that I wrote took about four years to put together. And a lot of the stories that we've talked about today are things that I was able to share with, with, with readers. I kept calling my parents to make sure that the stories were accurate because the last thing I wanted to do, you know, your memory as a 13 or 14 year old can sometimes be different than the way your parents remember it. And I just wanted to fact check all of that stuff. And I remember towards the end when my last edit was due, I called my parents and I said, Hey, I'm re-editing the section about the aunties and uncles and how I felt as a kid. And I just want to know when whenever one went around the room and said they wanted to go to med school or whatever, and I said I wanted to be an actor, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'm trying to find a number here, a mom and dad, on a scale of 1 to 10, how embarrassed were you that I said I wanted to go to theater and film school just on a scale of 1 to 10? And there was this pause and they both said, where did you get that into your head that we were embarrassed? We were never embarrassed. We were scared because we didn't even know that the arts were a career, nor did we think that our son or someone from our community could have that career and that there would be stability. So we were never embarrassed. We were scared. And I just thought, why did it take me to be an adult before I recognized the most basic parental, especially immigrant parental sentiment, which was that fear drove a lot of that. And so I'm thankful that you picked up on, obviously, “The Namesake” as a character, but the aspect of connection to the to the father and then things that I think sometimes we don't even recognize about the sacrifices our own parents made when when we talk about ourselves. So thank you for having me on.

I know that it was so beautiful. And as I just think about our whole conversation here, whether it's your mother and father who stood by you during those difficult times, whether it was your father driving you across the country so you could pursue your dreams. Mr. Manziano being a refuge for you when you were being bullied. Sonia Nikore, you know, helping you break into the industry or Barbara Cameron herself, you know, who stood up for you. There have been people in your life who, you know, it sounds like you've been blessed to meet and who helped you navigate a really bold, thoughtful path. And I'm just so glad we had this opportunity to talk. You reminding me as through this conversation just how important these relationships are in our life and how we can sometimes be that source refuge and strength for others. So I'm so grateful for you, Kal.

Thank you. Likewise. I'm so grateful for your leadership and all of the things you're doing. And I feel like we could have talked for hours more, so thank you.

Thanks for joining this conversation with Kal Penn. Please join me for the next episode of House Calls with Dr. Vivek Murthy. Wishing you all health and happiness.